It’s funny that this thread reawakened, but since I’m the original poster, I’ll share my current status. Been paddling now for five years, and I’d have to agree with Waterbird that the Eddylines (at least my full-size Fathom) is very difficult to keep in a straight line without the skeg. It’s like night and day. I think I’m a pretty good paddler at this stage, but skeg-up, I’m all over the place. Skeg down, straight as an arrow. My wife has a Valley Etain that I appropriate once in awhile, and it’s not this night/day. Now, I have yet to load this boat down, and at 175lbs, I’m on the lighter end of the GVWR for this boat, so maybe that plays a factor. The Fathom has a LOT of internal volume. It’s like an ocean liner when I compare it with Tahe’s that belong to friends.
I just picked up a greenland paddle, so I’m currently going through that learning curve. I won’t make any comments on the contrast yet, since I’m very new to it. It’s a whole different world.
On the subject of the aesthetic appeal of Eddylines, it’s weird…I loved the look of one belonging to a friend of mine, which is metallic copper. When I went to buy one, “Sorry, we discontinued that color.” So I let myself be talked into the midnight blue metallic color, which gets tons of comments wherever I go, and I have to admit, it’s definitely the second best color (after that discontinued copper). Recently I went on Eddyline’s website and discovered that they discontinued THAT color now. So I’m not sure who’s making the color decisions at Eddyline. Now it only comes in red, white or yellow, so you can forget about standing out at the put-ins any more.
Same tracking issue with my Fathom LV, primarily in flat water. Initially drove me batty until I read Eddyline’s description: This kayak is quick to accelerate, glides forever, turns on a dime and, with the skeg down, will track on a rail. The qualifier about the skeg was helpful.
Since I’m right handed, my stroke is stronger on my right side. When I equalize my strokes, using less propulsion with my right arm plus a bit of edge, I can make the boat go reasonably straight. It’s easier to use the skeg, but I like to practice without it since skegs can jam.
While I’ve not tried adding weight to my Fathom yet, when I got my Prana LV not only was it a challenge to keep it tracking straight, but the boat just ignored me at times. CD describes it as a boat for medium paddlers, which I’m not at 113#. I was carrying my kit in my rear day hatch. Moving it to the bow hatch was a positive difference; so much so I’ll carry extra water as well, just for the weight.
Hi, Rookie! I’m happy to hear about the success of your experiment. That confirms my suspicions. All I’ve got in my front hatch is a small first aid kit. Another option would be to move the seat farther forward (with the corresponding movement of the footpegs, obviously.) I know I’m pretty far back because I can’t actually pop my spray skirt without ‘scrunching’ my abs to get enough bend in my elbows to make the movement.
Re: the Greenland paddle…I was having a bad day yesterday, trying to incorporate all the forward stroke techniques I’ve seen on YT lately, and just feeling completely out of the groove. So I switched back to my Euro paddle mid trip. OH MY GOD. The first strokes felt like I’d buried my blade into a large container of wet cement and was trying to pull it toward me! I couldn’t believe the difference!
@Rookie and DavidR
Some boats have what is often called a loose bow. Great for surf but not as fun in wind. The Romany and Explorer both live there, so I bias my load a bit towards the bow. Especially if you are underweight for a boat, the issue is aggravated.
Some boats, though fewer these days, have a tight bow and a more skittery stern. That is my Vela - so weight bias is towards the stern.
You often have to mess around with a new boat to sort this out. Anyone who cites rigid rules for how to balance a load is talking about just their own boats with them in it. Maybe not your boat, with you in it.
@David R said:
OH MY GOD. The first strokes felt like I’d buried my blade into a large container of wet cement and was trying to pull it toward me! I couldn’t believe the difference!
Is that positive or negative? I am struggling a bit with this metaphor.
The difference between a Greenland stick and a Euro blade are stark. A lot of water flows around the Greenland stick, like logic would dictate. All my Greenland friends told me “Oh, it’s got the same amount of surface area in the water, so it doesn’t affect your speed.” I bought that then, but now know it’s poppycock. You have to up your strokes per minute to get the same speed, due to the amount of water that flows around the paddle. So basically, think of emptying your garage out one Saturday…with a Greenland paddle you’re choosing to carry lots of little items and walking faster, as opposed to with the Euro blade, you’re stacking everything into as few big boxes as possible and carrying those monsters more slowly. I’ve seen multiple YT videos where the guy says that if he’s going to be out paddling all day, he takes his Greenland stick, but if he thinks he’ll be out in heavy seas or may have to move quickly to assist with a rescue, he takes his Euro blade.
The proof is in the pudding…awhile back I was out with some Greenland friends and after several hours, my shoulders were starting to burn. They’d been sharing their paddles around with each other, since they all had different models, so I asked if I could be inserted into the sharing pattern. The FIRST STROKE with a Greenland paddle, my shoulders INSTANTLY stopped burning. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I now know that it’s because I just wasn’t pulling against nearly as much water resistance.
Sounds like the Greenland Paddle you tried was not sized the way you expected or you are not using it the way it is suppose to be used. A Greenland stroke is not exactly the same as a Euro stroke. And just like Euro paddles, Greenland Paddles come in different shapes and sizes.
The statements you are making sound as though you believe that there is only one of each. The cadence you wish to paddle whether using a Greenland or a Euro is somewhat done by your choice {and should be a factor in your choice} of paddle size and shape. This is one of the reasons your friends were trying each others paddles.
The ease of the stroke with a Greenland is more because at the point of insertion, the paddlers muscles are at there weakest point. {all stretched out} The body is more able to take more load slightly further back in the stroke than at the point of insertion. The Euro loads it all at the beginning. all at once. The Greenland paddle has blade volume increase just past the point of insertion, lessening shock at the initial contact.
With an Euro Paddle you are able to lessen this shock by doing a soft catch. The Greenland Paddle does this by design so there is no need to change any cadence of the stroke, during the stroke.
Were the paddles you were comparing both sized to you…I doubt that any increased cadence or speed been seen. But the Greenland Paddle would show less shock at the point of insertion {catch point} unless you were significantly soft catching with the Euro Paddle.
My Greenland paddle is adjustable in width. As for the increased cadence, that’s not me talking, that’s practically every Youtube video on basic Greenland paddling I’m quoting. For instance:
He made an offhand comment. I have found that the choice of paddle determines this . Obviously his paddles exhibit this , for him, and may even be part of the reason he chooses this shape and that particular size. It however is a paddle choice and not an across the board truism. You get to choose whether a paddle needs a higher cadence or not. {by choosing size and shape} You also get to choose against which Euro Paddles you wish to compare it to. {Free Will} Choose how you wish your paddle to interact with the water. Then get {or make} that paddle. {whether Euro or Greenland}
I use a Greenland paddle with a rather forceful stroke at a low cadence. Not necessarily because it is wise to do so - it probably isn’t - but I am just used to that movement.
And I don’t consider myself slow either. My normal travelling speed is around 4.5 knots if I am out for a couple of hours.
So I don’t really buy into the theory that you have to keep a high cadence with a Greenland paddle. You can choose to do so, but if you take care and allow it some time to bite in the water before pulling, you can also instead pull very hard and slow down your cadence.
@David R said:
I just picked up a greenland paddle, so I’m currently going through that learning curve. I won’t make any comments on the contrast yet, since I’m very new to it. It’s a whole different world.
One day later:
The difference between a Greenland stick and a Euro blade are stark. A lot of water flows around the Greenland stick, like logic would dictate.
I think roym makes good points about paddle size. Also, it does take a while to dial in a GP stroke, so it may be too early to make blanket statements about the Euro/GP difference. I find no particular difference in cadence between Euro and GP to achieve my normal paddling speed, although the strokes feel very different, of course.
A lot of water flows around every paddle. Euro paddle propulsion occurs via momentum transfer to the water, a drag-based mechanism which requires relative flow to happen. If a GP is properly canted while paddling, that relative flow creates additional hydrodynamic thrust during the stroke (in addition to the drag-based propulsion). So the GP can feel like it’s doing less while producing the same result. I think Allan’s last comment bears that out.
The Euro is certainly better at quick acceleration, although a GP used at high-angle with very quick short strokes does OK.
Try concentrating on pushing the blade that is out of the water instead of pulling the blade that is in the water. The pushing force needs to come from your torso and not your shoulders and arms. Lower your angle so that your pushing hand is never higher than your shoulder. It works for me and I do it for hours at a time without stopping. The cadence is approximately 50 strokes per minute while cruising.
Stability has very little to do with a kayak, it has a lot to do with a kayak paddler. My current favorite boat is a Westside Wave Exceed. It is 19 feet long and eighteen inches wide. Ninety percent of people could not even get into it without getting wet. To me it is spectacularly stable, even though I started with a perception America.
Stability is about the willingness to progress as a paddler and putting it the time to learn the boat. You can never rely ona boat to be your savior in a bad situation. That takes skill.
Skegs: Almost no one noticed them until Necky stuck one on the Elaho. They did that because a design flaw in that boat kept it from going windward. A skeg box was a cheap way to say they fixed it. They didn’t.
@CraigF said:
Stability has very little to do with a kayak, it has a lot to do with a kayak paddler.
My surfski is longer and narrower, so much so most Americans couldn’t fit in it. Those that have tried immediately went swimming. Even though I’ve been paddiling for fifty years it took me weeks to get it stable. My previous kayak was an HPK so it’s not like I went from rec boat to a ski. That said, the kayak has a lot to do with it. Once balance is mastered then comes the paddlers technical skills that makes the kayak sing.
@CraigF said:
Stability has very little to do with a kayak, it has a lot to do with a kayak paddler.
My surfski is longer and narrower, so much so most Americans couldn’t fit in it. Those that have tried immediately went swimming. Even though I’ve been paddiling for fifty years it took me weeks to get it stable. My previous kayak was an HPK so it’s not like I went from rec boat to a ski. That said, the kayak has a lot to do with it. Once balance is mastered then comes the paddlers technical skills that makes the kayak sing.
Outrigger floats are just as useless for getting the body feel and mastering even the basics of kayaking as “training” wheels are in learning to ride a bike. You can’t learn to balance either form of transport or learn to edge the kayak or countersteer the bike if it’s locked into a horizontal plane.