So, Coastal & not River. When I took ACA L3 we didn’t discuss dams or moving water other than tides. I’ve spend a fair bit of time on rivers and paddle (or at least used to paddle) whitewater & have a healthy respect for dams, pour-overs, and ledges. I have personal experience on the Big South Fork of how far downstream a reversal can reach.
L2 is not experienced, but remember my Central Tenet of Male Kayaking: Any male under the age of 80 who has been in a kayak twice considers himself intermediate or experienced.
“Course Overview: The Essentials of Kayak Touring course is designed to teach beginner paddlers to safely and enjoyably kayak on lakes, calm protected ocean environments, and other flatwater settings.”
An admirable and ambitious list of paddling and safety topics is covered in 8 hours, but that is not enough time to master any of them. I would consider a graduate of that class a better-informed beginner. One would think that being in their late 50s these guys would have learned about the danger of dams somewhere along the line, but maybe not. Even truly experienced people make deadly errors, nobody is immune to it.
Hmm, a few things. Agreed coastal paddling generally does not give anyone a lesson about inland dams, especially an underflow one. Those of us who live inland tend to get that lesson from spring flooding and annual springtime stories about someone getting caught by a dam.
There were likely signs on shore warning them to stay away, which I couldn’t have seen in the aerial. Duh on me.
As to qajaaman’s point… a highly certed instructor told Jim and myself years ago that he did not expect to see us in a headline even going out with just two of us in Maine. Because together we were always pretty conservative.
Dont know about the top, but there are adequate signs at the bottom. I wonder if there was a floating barrier above that was removed for the winter or something?
https://www.redrockhydroproject.com/images/uploads/Red_Rock_Dam.jpg
@qajaqman said:
L2 is not experienced, but remember my Central Tenet of Male Kayaking: Any male under the age of 80 who has been in a kayak twice considers himself intermediate or experienced.
I’m pretty sure 95% of the kayak people I’ve met fall into this category. More so male, but females too.
I’ve been kayaking since the 80s and I’m still an intermediate.
@string said:
I’ve been kayaking since the 80s and I’m still an intermediate.
Remember the old P-net with the self-rating in the profile - I rarely trusted the advice from those that considered themselves “Advance”.
@eckilson said:
Holy crap - why would you ever paddle anywhere near that. We have lots of dams around here, but nothing that big.
Exactly! And I bet you don’t take your ww boats into your smaller local dams to
play either.
The report that they were upstream was wrong. They got drawn upstream from below by the “whirlpool effect” as they call it. Maybe one of them lost their glasses and was trying to see what the big red sign said (see picture in article),
@string said:
I’ve been kayaking since the 80s and I’m still an intermediate.
(Edit: This is not a comment on the two kayakers mentioned in this thread. They had probably already been through all the ups and downs on the blue line.)
Perhaps these stages in a photographer’s life also fit a kayaker:
@qajaqman said:
L2 is not experienced,
[…]
I would consider a graduate of that class a better-informed beginner.
What would you consider the coach of that class? That is what is relevant here.
Any significant volume of water pouring down those steep sluices from underneath the gates would be expected to produce a large hydraulic with a strong reversal current. Presumably, the two victims got recirculated repeatedly. Too bad the gates could not have been closed more quickly.
I suspect most boaters with whitewater experience would have recognized the boil line that marks the boundary between the downstream current and the reversal, and stayed well away from it. But it sounds like these individuals may have had only flat water experience.
If the flow through the gates had been increased when the pair were in the immediate vicinity, the reversal current could have suddenly increased and the boil line moved further down stream.
@pblanc Just to comment on one thing that makes me a little crazy from folks who only do WW - and you are not the only I have heard this from. Long boaters and flat water boaters are NOT necessarily the same thing. Flat means water that is flat, or relatively so. That is not the case when dealing with waves and haystacks over your head off of points at low tide or in tidal races, or in bigger surf, or getting caught out in a squall of the same, or in wind at a high enough speed to push big waves. And dealing with this for distances more like a half mile to a mile if things catch you rather than getting to a nearby shore.
That rant done, yes big water paddlers often are not trained as well as WW people to see then patterns in moving water or be aware of its behavior thru narrower spaces. The closest would be people who have worked in tidal races, but that is probably only a smallish percentage of all sea kayakers. Partly because the really strong ones only exist in certain places, like the upper northeast and northwest.
Sure, different challenges exist. But pour overs creating strong hydraulics are not common features for ocean paddlers. Most whitewater boaters of experience have been stuck in a hydraulic a few times and have likely been recirculated at least once or twice and found the experience memorable. And many have spent hours scouting hundreds, if not thousands of rapids, scrutinizing them intently for “boat traps” like hydraulics and big holes. The eye becomes trained.
Sometimes a killer hole, a recirculating eddy, or lethal hydraulic might appear quite benign. Many have died after running a weir and getting caught in the reversal because it looked “easy”. There is a hole at the top of Woodall Shoals rapid on section IV of the Chattooga River that has killed dozens which can look quite benign to even whitewater paddlers of moderate experience.
I have seen kayakers casually attempting to enter their boats in the tail end of a recirculating eddy below a low-head dam who found that they had drifted back into the strong reversal current by the time they got their spray skirt on, and have to paddle ferociously or have a rope thrown to them to escape the pull.
The point is that this pair clearly did not recognize the potential of a reversal current or they would not have ventured anywhere near to it.
in general I avoid paddling in, around, or over manmade structures, that even includes artificial ww courses! I rarely “play” under bridges, since there is often manmade debri there as well.
One of my favorite runs has it’s share of rebar, chunks of concrete. and other debri but I’m pretty cognizant of where it is (scouting at low flow) and work to avoid it. Yes, I’ve run a few dams and even purposefuly surfed in spillway outflow. So I have made exceptions when it suited me. I think in general, folks underestimate the dangers of manmade structures- be it a cattle fence, a low head dam, a spillway hole or backwash, and often even breached dams have unseen debri.
I think each of us needs to be prepared (skillset and gearwise) for whatever environment we choose to paddle in. “Flatwater” can be anything but flat.
Ocean and Great Lake paddlers got way bigger kahunas than I do. That water is deep and you can be a long way from shore. Then you throw in currents , tides, wind, water temps, and ocean critters and there is a lot to consider.
As far as woodall shoals (chattooga) and the L (big south fork): know the water levels, be on your line, and punch drops real fast and hard (or in the modern age boof) or you just carry around that stuff. Understand that mistakes can have serious consequences. It’s your *ss on the line so you make the decision. “Stuff” does happen.
As far as certification, I am certifiable, just not at a very high level. Certification in general is a good starting point but not the end all be all. This discussion reminds me it’s time for me to again renew my first-aid/cpr and that I have some pretty huge holes in my own game that need to be filled (I struggle with rolling and hand of God).
I suspect a lot of regulars on this board could be certifiable… 
Quoting Paul Simon, “Celia, you’re breakin my heart”.
Interestingly when the Appalachian Mountain Club started running trips out of Knubble Bay ( inbetween two sizeable powerful tidal races) the leaders were all out of Boston AMC Whitewater committee.
I am pretty good at dealing with tidal whirlpools and eddies that constantly change but ask Pete about failure to hug a rootwad on the Current. He helped me out from my forgetfulness.
So while some whitewater skills are handy for long boaters on the ocean it does not make us skilled river runners… And embarrasingly I am a Level 3 ACA instructor. Freestyle… And about a level one student on the river.