huh?
What is wrong with innovation? Creativity?
Pat is only doing what thousands of inventors and innovators have been doing for hundreds/thousands of years - tyring to figure out how to make something work a little bit better. You can bet the first Greenlander who made a GP didn’t get nasty when another one made one slightly different.
As most know, the GP was the result of an incredible number of years of innovation - so if Pat can come up with a better widget, then let him! Pat - send it to me if you want an opinion!
Jeez…maybe we should all do a couple of rolls in cold Maine water and chill a bit…
Scott
Length and such continued
Pat,
I’ve been using a GP for just about 2 years now and I don’t consider myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination.
I don’t make my own, because I’m carpintry challenged. In the short time I have been using a GP, I have owned GP’s by Superior (both wood and carbon), Don Beale, and a storm paddle by John Peterson.
I also borrowed a friends TAP Cricket GP for a 10 day trip to Baja California, Mexico.
My personal preference is for wood and the Beale is my favorite GP. I personally like the way he ovals the looms. I have found that an 89 inch paddle with 3 1/4 inch blades and a 21 inch loom, work best for me.
Carbon is too stiff and just felt very uncomfortable when the water got bumpy.
IMHO, cedar is too soft a wood for a TAP and in my conversations with Don Beale, he strongly suggested getting a laminated paddle if going the TAP route.
I also don’t understand the feathering because so much of the GP is used with extended strokes and the feather would interfere with the symetry of the paddle.
Just my 2 cents.
Pat
Some talk, some do. I’m glad you’re a doer, that’s how progress is made.
Excellent advice, BTW (“don’t look”). ;^)
I was just looking for the very same.
Paul, I had just two days ago spoke to Feathercraft about their 2 piece GP. Thought it would be a ice addition. On a paddle in MIA we were doing swim races with the GPs and someone had a Feathercraft paddle. It was a little sharp on the edges but otherwise an overall nice paddle and rolled very nicely. Feathercraft told me they will not have any until after the first of the year.
Cheers.
Groan
Feather angle and adjustable length huh? On a Greenland stick?
I’d have to agree with some other posts that you’d be better to continue with your pther prjects such as your already impressive kayaks and your awesome looking wing paddles. The GP idea? Probably not a good idea really…
All the best though…
Cheers…Joe
Store on the foredeck
I Couldn’t do this with “the plank,” but now that the paddle is slimmer it fits, with some difficulty, under some bungees near the bow, that I guess are intended to hold the ferrule end of euro 2 pc paddle. So one end goes there and the other end is held in place with a velcro strap intertwined with the deck bungees. The tip of the blade is up against the cockpit cowling near my left knee.
It’s a 19’ Azul, so not the shortest kayak.
Actually, it is easier to carry this year. Still, one end crosses over near the bow and I think will get slapped with water if the bow needs to cut through waves. It’s probably more a mental, asthetic problem than an actual performance concern.
~~Chip
Dat’s what I’m talkin’ 'bout!
Your comment that the “Carbon is too stiff and just felt very uncomfortable when the water got bumpy” - very nicely illustrates my point bout this being a very personal thing.
For me, it’s the exact opposite. The carbon is my go-to paddle for comfort in bumps because it has mega bite, is super buoyant, and super tough. The stiffness only adds to the feeling of control for me and the overall confidence it inspires.
I think the variations in blade width, thickness, volume, edges, roots & shoulders really make a lot more difference. If I were to exactly replicate my Superior in WRC, and my WRC in CF - I can almost guarante I’d change to the WRC as my go-to.
That given, it’s really hard to compare custom hand carved GPs to computer cut foam core composites ones - or to each other for that matter. Different shapes.
Don Beale makes a great paddle. Similar to Superior in some ways on the stuff that matters to me at least (Clean quiet catch, good power/speed, smooth sculling, good feel in the hand). Their are clear differences looking at them side by side, but they’re such that I’d have a hard time identifying a strong preference.
Both are great examples - so you’re spoiled like I am. I put off carving for a long time because these set a pretty high benchmark. They also serve as very good references. I might have never carved if I hadn’t built the SOF. It just seemed right to have a complete self-made set, so I did a solid WRC and a laminated (still all WRC)Storm.
The point about laminated for TAP can’t be stressed enough (pun intended). Much more strength potential through wood and grain orientation options, and control over what’s inside the ferrule. WRC has mechanical properties good for one piece where it can be kept a bit thicker and can flex over it’s whole length, but likely to shear off when shaved down and shoved in a rigid tube that focuses the stresses.
Nothing is wrong with trying
All I (with my small team) do at work is create variations and options on products (and sometimes even something a bit more original - though our customers aren’t really after that) that strive to function, look, or be made a bit better/cheaper/faster. Trust me, I get it.
Most attempts at “innovation” have, and always will be, time consuming wastes of time leading down dead ends. Luckily we have “do-ers” who proceed anyway. Kudos to Pat for being one of them (and I’m sure his hit ratio is better that the less than 10% of designs done at the company I work for that make it to production).
As consumers our general experience with products however is with the survivors, and we tend to be unaware of or forget the cost of the failures.
I’m certainly not questioning anyone’s right to explore and tinker to his heart’s content. Pat’s a one man shop, with a lot of good stuff going on, so I’m just questioning him wanting to spend his limited resources on rethinking a paddle type he doesn’t regularly use (or at least never mentions), that’s already had centuries of attention, has solid design logic behind every element of it’s form, and is fanatically loved by it’s regular users.
No level of familiarity or love is required to tinker of course. Sometimes the freshest eyes see the most clearly. This instance seems more like the risk writers take who don’t follow the basic advice to write from personal experience. They have all the right skills, all the talent, and good subject matter, but the finished work just doesn’t read well to the intended audience…
Bigger concern should be: Who’s looking for this adjustable GP with feather option? Who’s the customer?
I guess doing hand work one at a time this is not really a big concern since there’s zero inventory and no special tools or materials needed.
Still, market wise it plays out like and idea for a kayak I have that I think would be great, but there’s almost zero market for it because it crosses too many lines.
Anyway, can’t wait to see it (along with all the potential future wonders Pat’s teased us with in other threads). If it turns out to be “all that” I’ll have no reservations about saying so.
Similar impressions of the Feathercraft
Same exact one of course!
Good feel in the water. Paddles very nice. A pleasant surprise.
If only they hadn’t carried the sharpness all the way to the roots. Shoulder was nice and minimal from top view, but I’d have to smooth out that side edge, and that might make it nearly shoulderless.
Not that that’s all bad either - and I like my storm that way - but I like my palm to be a bit more filled for normal paddling.
For anyone who hasn’t tried this paddle - please understand I’m talking about VERY minor things. Quite minimal dimensional/form differences from what I normally paddle with.
"When they come out, don’t look"
I’m still looking for anything ONNO or Tideline around here. Haven’t heard of any South of the Carolinas, but think saw an ONNO at the B&B a couple years a go.
Do they melt in water over 80 degrees? L
That’s rather harsh, don’t you think?
While I agree that feathering is essentially useless on a GP, I have actually been encouraging Pat to make a composite GP. I can see some significant advantages to a TAP GP and also to the adjustable length concept. I don’t see this as “bastardizing” anything, more as adapting the paddle to more uses and paddlers. For example:
- A TAP paddle…
…is easier to carry and transport.
…will work well as a spare on boats with decks that are too short to accommodate a short (“storm”) paddle.
One of the primary issues with new paddlers switching to GPs is determining what length loom they need. This is one of the most common questions I get, even from people who have my book.
- Having adjustable loom length…
…would allow beginners and experienced paddlers alike to experiment with loom length to discover what works best for them.
…would, if long enough, allow a single paddle to serve as both a short spare or “storm” paddle and as a full-length paddle.
…would allow paddlers to lengthen the loom when paddling a wide boat and shorten it when paddling narrower boats.
…would provide shops selling GPs with a paddle that would let customers try several sizes without the need to keep a large stock of expensive demo paddles…
I don’t see this as being antithetical to the the basic concept of the simple elegance of the GP. There are huge personal and regional variations in the design anyway, so what’s the difference?
My preferences run toward paddles with some flex and liveliness to them, so if Pat can produce an alternative to the rigid - but excellent in its own right - Superior paddle, why not?
Here’s another question for the group. If Pat could produce a TAP ferrule (adjustable or not) in a shape that more closely duplicates the oval/rounded-rectangle shape common in GPs, would you like to have a TAP cedar paddle built with it? I for one think that would be great!
Obviously, I like cedar paddles or I wouldn’t have bothered to write a book on making them. I can’t see myself ever switching to composite paddles. However, the Superior paddle has been generally accepted by the GP masses - despite the initial objections of “purists” - and some people prefer it to wood for perfectly legitimate reasons. I’ve tried it and although it’s not on my personal “must have” list, I can understand why people like it.
Those of you who have met Greenlanders, spent any time on the Qajaq USA site or attended any of the big GP events have undoubtedly heard of the pragmatic nature of Greenlanders. For example:
- They adopted metal tools when the they became available.
- They began using mast hoops for coamings instead of laboriously bending their own.
- They used glue and nails in the contruction of their boats once they were available.
- They adopted firearms for hunting in a heartbeat.
- They build their boats with canvas and synthetic fabrics now. I’ve even heard of boats with ribs cut from plastic shipping drums.
- Currently, some of them are adding sewn-in bulkheads and hatches to their skin boats.
Given this general acceptance of innovation within the “mother culture” of the GP, I don’t understand the strong objections to Pat’s TAP/adjustable loom concept. I strongly suspect that if they’d had the technology, they would have done something like this themselves. Undoubtedly, there have been myriad experiments in paddle making by Greenlanders that have been lost in time.
Still, if Pats concept bothers you, there’s not going to be anyone forcing you to buy one. As long as there’s wood, we can make all the “traditional” paddles we want.
If Pat will allow me…
– Last Updated: Sep-22-06 10:14 AM EST –
...I'd like to clarify one thing. Regarding feathering, Pat has designed a ferrule that allows for adjustable length and feather for his standard paddles. He already has this product done and he's simply adapting it to his GP project. It's not that he thinks that feather is necessarily beneficial on a GP, it's just that the ferrule design has that adjustability built-in. If he makes a GP with it, it will have adjustable feather by default. Whether one uses it or not is an entirely separate matter.
I wouldn’t do it with a cedar paddle
The problems are twofold:
- Reducing the size of the loom to fit the ferrule dramatically lowers its strength.
- Inserting it into a rigid ferrule creates edges that dig into the wood as it flexes and produces stress points where the loom will ultimately fail.
One of the reasons I’ve encouraged Pat to make a ferrule that more closely mimics the shape and size of a GP loom is that it can eliminate these problems, particularly if it’s designed to have some flex to it as well.
If you’re going to make a TAP GP with one of the commercially available ferrules, I strongly encourage you to make it with hardwood reinforcement in the loom.
Shoulderless, but palm-filling
I understand exactly what you mean. At the Arctic Boat Weekend in Mystic, I was working on just such a paddle. The loom is only 8" long (as opposed to my normal 21"), so my hands will be far enough out on the blades to provide a good feel and proper orientation.
Advice I shall heed, thanks
I agree with your reasoning on fitting the ferrule to cedar. Thanks for posting, you probably saved me some work that would have produced a disappointing result.
Looks like the project for this winter will be a new paddle with hardwood laminate to beef up the loom and since I’ll be gluing up stock, hardwood for the blade edges seems like a swell idea, too.
~~Chip
Interesting system of joining
That’s an interesting system of joining a 2-pc paddle and has the advantage of not forcing a change in the dimension of the loom to fit a ferrule.
I think it will still require exceptional strength in the loom area. Seems like with the insertion of the metal “bone” inside the loom, bending the paddle will put a stress on the wood that will want to separate the grain and splinter the loom.
Just my opion based on looking at the pictures.
~~Chip
Evolution - Improvements
So it’s OK to make SOF kayaks using ballistic nylon and other modern materials, but your paddle still has to be carved out of a hunk of driftwood right?
Sounds just a wee bit hypocritical to me…but don’t let me bother you,I’m just an unwashed Philistine who paddles a thermoformed plastic boat with a carbon shafted euro bladed (feathered) paddle.
Have to be carved out of wood?
To me it sounds like he said the opposite.
He said he encouraged Pat to manufacture a GP using composite materials.
The fact that he, like many others, still prefer wood is another story.
TAP
Forgot to mention in my above post…the take apart option is cool, I like that! I’ve been planning to work on a TAP option on my own GP’s eventually. That part of the idea I do like!
Cheers…Joe