The stern bag that comes with it has a tether you tie inside. After much measurement and research I found that the same bag from Emotion can be used effectively in front of the footrests in the bow and it can also be secured inside. It won't pop out if done right. In the front you may need to deflate slightly to fit if you have long legs like me.
You're suggesting that it was a good test of a boat to try to roll it without a skirt? That makes no sense. Sure, what you expected to happen did happen, because you're right, without a skirt and more flotation that's exactly what will happen. Why would anyone be out on the open ocean in cold water and waves in a sit inside kayak without a skirt?
I'm not suggesting that this kayak is a good choice for open ocean touring. Just responding to some of the misconceptions of these rec type craft.
Good find The OP should be all over that first listing for a 14’ Necky with paddle, skirt and pfd for $250. A great way to get started and much better than her original plan.
Yes, if you are careful My first suggestion is to ask the local outfitter there in Santa Barbara what kind of kayaks they rent to novices. I suspect SOTs.
A SOT is clearly the safest and most easy to self-rescue. They self-drain and most people can probably climb back on them. Inexpensive. Relatively heavy.
That leaves SINKs and Recs. Both should be bagged or bulkheaded so they float after capsize and so they will have less water to bail or pump out. Recs are very cheap and can be reasonably lightweight. SINKs can be very lightweight but only at high expense.
Is a SINK more safe or self-rescuable than a Rec? Not once you are upside down, unless you can roll. If you can’t roll, you will have to re-enter/pump in either craft … or swim. The wider Rec may even be less prone to tipping in the hands of a novice. Of course, a SINK with a strong spray skirt will be less likely to take waves into the cockpit than a non-skirted Rec, but I’m assuming your care will keep you from paddling in such wave conditions.
In sum, all the safety and instructional advice you have been getting is valid, but to answer your specific question I think it is a reasonable paddling risk to paddle a securely bagged Rec kayak in calm salt or fresh waters. Just be very attuned to the weather and sea condition reports, stay within your personal swimming distance to shore – which is a function of water temperature, how you are dressed, your age, and your swimming ability – and hie thee swiftly to shore if wind or waves get scary.
I paddled seakayaks without a reliable roll for eight years like this and never had a problem. I don’t think it would have been any different if I had been in a Rec, other than I would have been slower and a lot of club paddlers wouldn’t have let me paddle with them. It’s the same care with which I have paddled open canoe for more than 50 years, and I haven’t tried (or probably been able) to self-rescue in an open canoe for the past 20 years of increasing decrepitude.
By paddling with such defensive care you are limiting the conditions in which you can paddle, but you at least are paddling, which is better than typing. If you want to be able to paddle more challenging conditions with confidence, take lessons, learn how to roll, and you will almost inevitably end up in a different boat than your starter boat.
Of course it was a good test! I never rolled one of these, being 3 feet or so wide, and I confirmed to myself that they indeed roll quite easy. At least the one I had did, as I'm sure not all of them have a good place to brace your knees and some have obnoxiously obtrusive back rests etc.
Of course I expected it would sink without flotation - I was not testing that idea. It was fun to do and entertainment for the folks on shore. I thought it was worth mentioning here for some who don't know what happens when a boat gets partially or fully swamped.
I've actually never paddled a short rec kayak before, so this was a "test paddle" of sorts for me. I was pleasantly surprised that it actually paddled nicely and tracked well while being controllable and maneuverable. I'm used to WW and sea kayaks, so that was a new experience for me... I also pracitced towing another one of these boats with my first-time-paddler 8 year-old daughter in it, and that worked pretty well too and we both enjoyed it (I dragged her upwind, she paddled downwind on her own or with help from the tow line). And no, there was no danger in any of that as we were in warm water, in a protected area with a nice breeze towards a nice sandy beach, and near plenty of other boaters and beach goers. I guess you can call that a test for an assisted rescue by towing, if that's not too much against your idea of what a good test is -;)
Then you did find out that these boats, at least the Glide, can be actually well designed. No, it’s not fast. I can move it at 4 mph regularly, but in a wind or current it is definitely not the best. The wide and long cockpit makes entry and exit very easy. It does edge. Except for wind/current conditions when I was tired after a long paddle, I could usually keep up with the sea kayak friends in the sloughs, and they often joke that I keep them paddling hard to keep up with me.
So when I read people trashing the rec boats outright, I get defensive of this little craft.
But I have no illusions about its seaworthiness in the real ocean, believe me!
Funny who it works out. You are not the first climber who has tried kayaking in the sea. I really hope it works out, but I wonder if you will listen to the advice you are being given here.
I highly recommend a sit on top if you are going into the ocean from the beach without lessons and on your own. Also you should get float bags for any kayak you take in the surf. Furthermore you should really get a surf read life vest and a helmet.
Imagine this: you launch in benign conditions, paddle along for an hour or two. While your were out a swell arrived from a distant shore. When you try to land through the breaking swell, you are hammered. And I mean just like a hammer!
You will have no warning because the swell grew quietly and un-noticeably while you were paddling in the green room. You will not realize you are in trouble until you are already in the impact zone.
Join a club, get lessons, and get appropriate gear. If you want to do it at the least gear cost, get a sit on top. even with the sit on top, lessons,a helmet , thigh straps and a paddle leash would help a lot.
Saw it, decided I was not ready! Yes, I saw that necky on craigs and for the price it was QUITE tempting…but after reading all the posts here I decided that there is too much danger in dealing with a boat you don’t really know a lot about. Yep…went with the little SOT’s and I think that’s a great step toward getting involved with kayaking. (That and taking classes which I plan to do now!)
Sorry for delay in post, I was busy yesterday wrangling kayaks from craigslist (didn’t get home til late after picking one up!). I wound up with two SOT Ocean Kayaks…the Mysto, for my boyfriend, and I scored a Venus for me (the female version of the Mysto). I was very tempted by the 14’ Necky I saw for $250, but I wound up sticking with the little sit on tops and will wait to take lessons before getting anything bigger (as was stated how much instruction it takes for self rescue, etc).
I hope no one thought I was trying to counter all the advice before, I was just trying to illicit more information. And delve into the real details (like go beyond the “no” to the “why”). I hope that this thread helps someone out who had the same bonehead idea I had to get the PROPER information! I am so thankful for this site and all the great community members…if only the people at REI trying to sell me the rec kayak actually knew this info. I am temped to print this thread up and bring in to them so they do not sell one of the closed deck, cheap rec kayaks to an unsuspecting person.
Luckily, I never had the kayak I mentioned (was only thinking about it). I was just trying to get all the info possible before making a decision.
Also, I will definitely get a paddle leash and the proper clothing, though now I am rethinking heading out along the coast until I have taken at least a few classes and research clothing.
Whoah! I agree with you, that REI and any store that sells boats should be really clear about the proper use and limits of what they’re selling. Sorry, but that isn’t how retail works, unfortunately. You can buy those same kayaks on the web, in big box stores, or even sports stores that should know better, without being properly informed at all - often without even speaking to a human being.
However, be careful about throwing around ideas like “cheap rec kayaks”.
Yes, they are cheaper, which doesn’t translate into crap, just less expensive than larger ocean boats. Yes, they are recreational class kayaks, which means that they do get people started out on the water, who may never have ventured into an expensive 18’ boat. Both of those are good things.
There’s nothing wrong with many of these craft used for their intended ends by people who are properly equipped and have enough experience.
In your case the info you sought - and I’m glad you did - was related to your inexperience and eagerness, not necessarily to the boat itself.
Do take those lessons. The sea is very unforgiving!
"Here’s the deal: recreational kayaks are for general recreation. They’re not meant for surfing Bolinas. They’re not meant for making the Inside Passage to Alaska. They’re designed for even the first time kayaker to sit flat on the water comfortably on relatively pleasant days. Rec boats are wide and stable. Most people don’t wear spray skirts. A lot of people bring their dog. As a result, the vast majority of these kayaks have the very bare minimum of emergency flotation, which makes it difficult at best to get the water out of a swamped boat. A flooded boat won’t sink, but it also won’t float high enough to get back in. Manufacturers build boats like this for three reasons: keep the price low, keep the weight down, and also because the chances are very small that you would ever tip the boat over (if you paddle in the conditions the boat was built for). "
If retailers merely gave potential customers
info from the ACA on where to get instruction
the number of water related deaths would drop.
The USA is surrounded on 3 sides by ocean, and
has countless creeks, streams, rivers and lakes.
Paddling is a LEARNED skill, just like golf.
Millions hack at it and think they know.
A lifetime is spent learning about nature.
Putting a tush in a cockpit doesn't make that
person a kayaker/canoeist anymore than putting
a tush in airplane makes that person a pilot.
hit and miss REI is a step above the bog box stores, in that some of the employees there do really know their stuff. Many of them are outdoor enthusiasts.
But it can be hit or miss, as not all are up on the sport you are interested in. More likely to find consistent info for a local kayak shop (then again, not all of those are perfect either).
Read it there and agree. The fault is not with the boat, but with the manufacturer for not including fore and aft flotation (to save money) and/or with the user for believing that it can be used in severe conditions without training no less!
I bought my glide for $325 on sale, cheap enough to determine if I wanted to pursue this sport. It got me back out on the water, and that’s what I needed to find that kayaking is a hobby worth pursuing and that I would keep it up.
It came with an aft float bag that’s well made, and many don’t. After reading and lessons, I realized I needed a fore float bag and found that it only cost $25 more for me to buy another one from Emotion that fit almost perfectly.
In the literature they don’t in any way claim that this is a seagoing vessel that I can see. It’s a better designed rec boat than most I’ve seen and evaluated, though. All their claims for this design and the quality of its manufacture are correct, IMO. And that’s the way I use it with pleasure.
Don’t know the boat, but… I’ve paddled a boat like that with James when we were looking for an SOT double so that I could take him out. We tried a few boats and the retailer suggested, since the next boat we wanted to try was being used, that we take out an open cockpit boat. I was dubious, but decided to give it a shot into the 2-3 foot surf coming in.
It was bad. The surf was continuous (for those who know the SF Bay, Coyote Point had those typical rollers you get on moderately windy conditions). The first wave simply plowed over the boat and nearly filled the boat. The next wave was certain to flood it, so I did what I could to turn the boat and surf back in. Being, at this point, a sinking barge, the dang thing turned almost as well as the Exxon Valdez. I gave it up as a loss, bailed out with the kid, and hauled the kid and POS to shore.
So, I don’t recommend going out in potential surf in a boat that isn’t either closed cockpit or a SOT that is designed to self-drain.
I disagree that water deaths would decrease appreciably if people knew about ACA courses or if people even took some of the courses. I learned to fly and for the most part the instruction was not good quality. I learned to scuba dive and the majority of what I got was poor instruction. I became a scuba instructor and what I found is that most people don’t want to spend the time or the money for quality training.
Reality seems to be that even with training or certification people will still do stupid things that lead to injury or death for someone.