9' Closed Deck Rec Kayak okay for ocean?

Yes but really NO!

– Last Updated: Jun-20-12 10:45 AM EST –

I have done what you are asking about. I bought a zip up skirt for a cheap Pelican es100 that cost $180 new. I live on the east coast and this boat was for fishing on farm ponds, but I took it to the coast for a week to play in the surf. However the water temps on the Isle of Palms were in the 80s and the beach was shallow running out 100 yards or more before being over your head. The waves ran from about 2 to 5 feet. It was lots of fun but the large cockpit and cheap skirt would allow a wave that hit on deck to implode and fill the boat with water. I had added enough floatation to keep the flooded kayak from sinking. I could handle the boat well enough, but it had to be taken to shore to empty when flooded. I had even learned to cowboy reentry in deep flat water, but this wasn’t possible in the surf. The week on the coast convinced me I wanted to do more, but that the boat was just inadequate for the purpose

My experience is I grew up on the water in Florida. I have done a fair amount of free diving in the ocean. I have worked on boats on both fresh and salt water doing fisheries work. I have many years of canoeing mostly rivers and some white water, and I have even surfed a canoe on the Atlantic coast. The summation of what I am saying is yes it can be done, but you will soon find that it is far from ideal, and in deep cold water may be life threatening. Be aware that you will need immersion protection (wet suit or dry suit) on the pacific and Tahoe.

If cost is a factor watch craigslist for a used boat. I have recently seen both a Necky chatum and CD squall with paddles selling for $400 each within 100 miles of where I live. Both are full size plastic sea kayaks. Yes this is a rare deal as most boats like this will run used for about $600-$800, but I see 1 or 2 such deals like this every summer. Last summer I saw a deal for $450 that had the paddle, skirt, pfd, pump, and paddle float thrown in with the sea kayak. I would have bought it for a loaner but I was a day late. You can check the reviews on this site to give you an idea of most makes and models you find for sale that interest you.

So if you go this route you have to be vigilant and ready to act. I went this route and bought a fiberglass North Shore buccaneer with paddle for $600 and Shearwater merganser stitch and glue kit for $400 that I built last winter. I am very happy with both boats, and have had them surfing and touring the coast. In fact my wife and I just got back from paddling the Suwannee River in FL with these boats about a week ago.

So listen to the people here and their advice. I believe you will be happy that you did. There is more than one way to skin this cat rather than what you are suggesting.

CKF.org
I suggest you reach out to the folks in California Kayak Friends club. They’re very active in & around Santa Barbara. Nice people and a good source of knowledge and experience for you. Buddy up with them for a paddle of Ventura or Channel Islands harbors (much more suitable for a rec boat). if you want to paddle on the ocean, consider a SOT or real sea kayak.



Also, Jen Kleck of Aqua Adventures in San Diego (aqua-adventures.com) occasionally does instruction up there for that club. Or take a day to come down to SD for lessons. At this point, you don’t know what you don’t know.

What about crossover kayaks for her?
What about her using a crossover kayak, such as the Dagger Approach or Axis, LiquidLogic Remix XP, Jackson Rogue, or Pyranha Fusion? She seems to want something small, sit in and wants to do both shore and lakes, without investing in multiple boats. People do use these boats to play in surf and rock-gardens. I like this class for the type of kayaking I do around home but never have used them on the ocean – too much trouble to cart them to the east coast vs just going with an outfitter when I get there.



While these boats are still rec boats they have smaller cockpits, skegs, and better outfitting then the class she is looking at. Granted they aren’t cheap boats.



Sure they aren’t speedy boats but with the addition of floats and good skirt would she be safer then what she is looking at, assuming she does stay close to shore and doesn’t do anything foolish?

As above…
Once you have waves of any scale staying close to shore is out unless someone already knows how to surf. Most of the crossovers are still pretty bad for an on water self rescue, especially if talking water temps in the 50’s.

More info …
A older whitewater boat like a Necky Jive is extremely easy to roll, it’s 24 inches wide, and bobs like a cork. The smaller cockpit and float bags, and foam pillars inside keep the water volume much less. It’s not very fast to paddle, but fast enough if you are just out exploring. The boat has good rocker and is made for playing in rough water.



A boat like the Cobra Strike was designed for paddling on the ocean, and is safe for a beginner, because if you tip over, you climb back in and it takes all of 10 or 20 seconds. It will paddle faster than a whitewater boat, but not much faster for longer trips.

invest your money wisely
For the $400 you would blow on the Glide, you should be easily able to find a decent used rotomold sea or touring kayak that would be way more comfortable, safe and enjoyable in big water and for most other types of paddling you are likely to do. I’ve used my 15’ x 22" touring kayak for everything from coastal surfing to moderate Class II whitewater. And I have bought 3 very nice quality used touring kayaks in that size range for $400 or less in the past 10 years, a Dagger Magellan, a Perception Chinook and a Perception Scimitar, all with sealed bulkheads, hatches, full deck rigging, rudders and keyhole cockpits that will take a sprayskirt. Considering I live nowhere near the ocean that suggests you should have an even wider selection to choose from. These are just a few current CL ads for kayaks in Santa Barbara, all near or under your budget:



http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3083771260.html



http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3036451685.html



http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/boa/3088228351.html



http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/boa/3041791535.html



http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/spo/3079592797.html

Flotation

– Last Updated: Jun-20-12 3:52 PM EST –

The bags for the Glide CAN be secured inside.

The stern bag that comes with it has a tether you tie inside. After much measurement and research I found that the same bag from Emotion can be used effectively in front of the footrests in the bow and it can also be secured inside. It won't pop out if done right. In the front you may need to deflate slightly to fit if you have long legs like me.

You're suggesting that it was a good test of a boat to try to roll it without a skirt? That makes no sense. Sure, what you expected to happen did happen, because you're right, without a skirt and more flotation that's exactly what will happen. Why would anyone be out on the open ocean in cold water and waves in a sit inside kayak without a skirt?

I'm not suggesting that this kayak is a good choice for open ocean touring. Just responding to some of the misconceptions of these rec type craft.

Good find
The OP should be all over that first listing for a 14’ Necky with paddle, skirt and pfd for $250. A great way to get started and much better than her original plan.

Pass on the Tico …
not a beginners boat, and if I remember right the cockpit is really tight, very tough to wet exit. Also the boat is ancient.

Yes, if you are careful
My first suggestion is to ask the local outfitter there in Santa Barbara what kind of kayaks they rent to novices. I suspect SOTs.



A SOT is clearly the safest and most easy to self-rescue. They self-drain and most people can probably climb back on them. Inexpensive. Relatively heavy.



That leaves SINKs and Recs. Both should be bagged or bulkheaded so they float after capsize and so they will have less water to bail or pump out. Recs are very cheap and can be reasonably lightweight. SINKs can be very lightweight but only at high expense.



Is a SINK more safe or self-rescuable than a Rec? Not once you are upside down, unless you can roll. If you can’t roll, you will have to re-enter/pump in either craft … or swim. The wider Rec may even be less prone to tipping in the hands of a novice. Of course, a SINK with a strong spray skirt will be less likely to take waves into the cockpit than a non-skirted Rec, but I’m assuming your care will keep you from paddling in such wave conditions.



In sum, all the safety and instructional advice you have been getting is valid, but to answer your specific question I think it is a reasonable paddling risk to paddle a securely bagged Rec kayak in calm salt or fresh waters. Just be very attuned to the weather and sea condition reports, stay within your personal swimming distance to shore – which is a function of water temperature, how you are dressed, your age, and your swimming ability – and hie thee swiftly to shore if wind or waves get scary.



I paddled seakayaks without a reliable roll for eight years like this and never had a problem. I don’t think it would have been any different if I had been in a Rec, other than I would have been slower and a lot of club paddlers wouldn’t have let me paddle with them. It’s the same care with which I have paddled open canoe for more than 50 years, and I haven’t tried (or probably been able) to self-rescue in an open canoe for the past 20 years of increasing decrepitude.



By paddling with such defensive care you are limiting the conditions in which you can paddle, but you at least are paddling, which is better than typing. If you want to be able to paddle more challenging conditions with confidence, take lessons, learn how to roll, and you will almost inevitably end up in a different boat than your starter boat.






A Good Test - yes

– Last Updated: Jun-20-12 5:34 PM EST –

Of course it was a good test! I never rolled one of these, being 3 feet or so wide, and I confirmed to myself that they indeed roll quite easy. At least the one I had did, as I'm sure not all of them have a good place to brace your knees and some have obnoxiously obtrusive back rests etc.

Of course I expected it would sink without flotation - I was not testing that idea. It was fun to do and entertainment for the folks on shore. I thought it was worth mentioning here for some who don't know what happens when a boat gets partially or fully swamped.

I've actually never paddled a short rec kayak before, so this was a "test paddle" of sorts for me. I was pleasantly surprised that it actually paddled nicely and tracked well while being controllable and maneuverable. I'm used to WW and sea kayaks, so that was a new experience for me... I also pracitced towing another one of these boats with my first-time-paddler 8 year-old daughter in it, and that worked pretty well too and we both enjoyed it (I dragged her upwind, she paddled downwind on her own or with help from the tow line). And no, there was no danger in any of that as we were in warm water, in a protected area with a nice breeze towards a nice sandy beach, and near plenty of other boaters and beach goers. I guess you can call that a test for an assisted rescue by towing, if that's not too much against your idea of what a good test is -;)

Then you did find out
that these boats, at least the Glide, can be actually well designed. No, it’s not fast. I can move it at 4 mph regularly, but in a wind or current it is definitely not the best. The wide and long cockpit makes entry and exit very easy. It does edge. Except for wind/current conditions when I was tired after a long paddle, I could usually keep up with the sea kayak friends in the sloughs, and they often joke that I keep them paddling hard to keep up with me.



So when I read people trashing the rec boats outright, I get defensive of this little craft.



But I have no illusions about its seaworthiness in the real ocean, believe me!

Funny who it works out.
You are not the first climber who has tried kayaking in the sea. I really hope it works out, but I wonder if you will listen to the advice you are being given here.



I highly recommend a sit on top if you are going into the ocean from the beach without lessons and on your own. Also you should get float bags for any kayak you take in the surf. Furthermore you should really get a surf read life vest and a helmet.



Imagine this: you launch in benign conditions, paddle along for an hour or two. While your were out a swell arrived from a distant shore. When you try to land through the breaking swell, you are hammered. And I mean just like a hammer!



You will have no warning because the swell grew quietly and un-noticeably while you were paddling in the green room. You will not realize you are in trouble until you are already in the impact zone.



Join a club, get lessons, and get appropriate gear. If you want to do it at the least gear cost, get a sit on top. even with the sit on top, lessons,a helmet , thigh straps and a paddle leash would help a lot.

Saw it, decided I was not ready!
Yes, I saw that necky on craigs and for the price it was QUITE tempting…but after reading all the posts here I decided that there is too much danger in dealing with a boat you don’t really know a lot about. Yep…went with the little SOT’s and I think that’s a great step toward getting involved with kayaking. (That and taking classes which I plan to do now!)

Will look up the club
Thanks for the suggestion, I will look that up!

THANK YOU ALL!!!
Hi!! GREAT NEWS!!!



Sorry for delay in post, I was busy yesterday wrangling kayaks from craigslist (didn’t get home til late after picking one up!). I wound up with two SOT Ocean Kayaks…the Mysto, for my boyfriend, and I scored a Venus for me (the female version of the Mysto). I was very tempted by the 14’ Necky I saw for $250, but I wound up sticking with the little sit on tops and will wait to take lessons before getting anything bigger (as was stated how much instruction it takes for self rescue, etc).



I hope no one thought I was trying to counter all the advice before, I was just trying to illicit more information. And delve into the real details (like go beyond the “no” to the “why”). I hope that this thread helps someone out who had the same bonehead idea I had to get the PROPER information! I am so thankful for this site and all the great community members…if only the people at REI trying to sell me the rec kayak actually knew this info. I am temped to print this thread up and bring in to them so they do not sell one of the closed deck, cheap rec kayaks to an unsuspecting person.



Luckily, I never had the kayak I mentioned (was only thinking about it). I was just trying to get all the info possible before making a decision.



Also, I will definitely get a paddle leash and the proper clothing, though now I am rethinking heading out along the coast until I have taken at least a few classes and research clothing.



Soooo…A BIG thank you to EVERYONE!!

You meant SOT, right?
Just scanned your post and, for the sake of clarity, wanted to confirm that where you typed SINK you really meant SOT… yes?

Whoah!
I agree with you, that REI and any store that sells boats should be really clear about the proper use and limits of what they’re selling. Sorry, but that isn’t how retail works, unfortunately. You can buy those same kayaks on the web, in big box stores, or even sports stores that should know better, without being properly informed at all - often without even speaking to a human being.



However, be careful about throwing around ideas like “cheap rec kayaks”.



Yes, they are cheaper, which doesn’t translate into crap, just less expensive than larger ocean boats. Yes, they are recreational class kayaks, which means that they do get people started out on the water, who may never have ventured into an expensive 18’ boat. Both of those are good things.



There’s nothing wrong with many of these craft used for their intended ends by people who are properly equipped and have enough experience.



In your case the info you sought - and I’m glad you did - was related to your inexperience and eagerness, not necessarily to the boat itself.



Do take those lessons. The sea is very unforgiving!

Great joke!
I can’t believe how many people thought you were serious!





Oh wait… you were serious?

REI? stop the presses!
Someone told me that REI gives impeccable user and site-specific advice, and that their sales approach is based on altruism!