I sell them …
and my feeling is what I’m offering is a complete package. Hull shape is but one part of boat building.
You have to blend ease-of-build, trade-offs for best material usage, and hope you’re getting mass appeal. Then there is the tech support after. Some designs although seem simple, take several complete drawing packages before the fit just right.
For all that I stipulate on my plans that it’s for one boat and the plans cannot be sold, copied, or distriubted without consent from yadda yadda yadda. That’s my official business position.
“off the record”, I’ve had a couple occasions where builders ask if they should purchase 2 sets of plans since they want to build one for the wife or they might try and sell one for the church raffle. I’m usually agreeable to having to purchase only one set but I always want to have the right of refusal.
Copying to have to e-mail to a buddy is always a “no”.
Fact of the matter is…
It all derived from the G.I. Army hammock… Which everyone that owns one seems to try to deny…
Paddle easy,
Coffee
Rings a bell to me
A few years ago this came up and I posted a link to the VHDPA. Don't know much at all about nor where I first heard about it. If I remember correctly, the protection period was not all that long.
OK, here's a link:
http://www.copyright.gov/reports/vhdpa-report.pdf
To be clear
My musings are exclusively about how the law works, not how it should work or how plan buyers ought to conduct themselves. But my recollection was that there was a real hole in IP law in that you could protect plans–the drawings themselves–from duplication, but couldn’t prevent someone from recreating your hull design any way they wanted to. I thought that the hull design protection legislation fixed that at least partially, but maybe not completely, and only for designs created after the effective date of the legislation.
As a matter of right and wrong, I think that if you make a deal with a designer that you’re buying plans to build one boat from them, you ought to abide by that. But I’m not at all sure how much recourse the designer has if the buyer builds another hull to the same design.
I’m with …
you Coffee.
Uncle Johns position
I contacted Uncle John asking for his thoughts here is his response:
“I may have a different opinion than many, I do not object to the individual who purchased my plans building as many boats as they want from the set of plans they purchase. On the other hand, When I email a download for a set of plans I include the following statement: “intended for “one user” only. Transferring our patterns via any means for use by any individual other than the purchaser will be considered a violation of our copyright. Opening the file constitutes understanding and acceptance of this agreement.” When someone ‘gives’ (as they see it) a set of plans to a friend they are very simply stealing. Although they do not sell them, they prevent a sale which in principal is the same as stealing and they encouraged their friends to be dishonest. I do post plans (without dimensions) on the internet to encourage the first time builder by showing them exactly what’s involved. I’m fully aware that there are those who save the plans and build from them. But I’m willing to take that risk so that the novice can understand what they will be doing and to encourage them that they can successfully build a boat.
My goal is to introduce people to boat building. Offering a product that gives the first time builder confidence that they can actually build a boat while keeping the cost low enough that it will not prevent them from taking the step. While writing this I received the following email “Thank you so much for e-mailing these plans so quick. My husband has been wanting a boat for years, but they are so expensive. Now with these plans the cost will not be as much as buying one. When I call him and let him know they are here he will be so excited that I’m sure he will leave work early. Thank you again, Holly”. That is an example of my goal achieved.
I know it’s not a perfect world and a certain amount of ‘shoplifting’ takes place. Some people are honest, some aren’t and some never think. There are those that say “you only need to change it 10%”. That is like saying, “I’ll only steal 90% of the money in the bank and it’ll be OK”. If one person purchased my plans, changed them by 10% and gave them away on the internet. I would be out of business and the effort spent to develop and draw the plans would be lost. There also would be no one to offer often needed support. It would not be long before we who design would disappear and there would be nothing new. It’s all the same, plans, music, books, or software, take away our source of income and we will not be there. We may not do it for the money alone but we do deserve a return on our effort. People can split hairs anyway they want but it all comes down to knowing and doing what’s right.
Uncle John
__________________________
Uncle John’s General Store”
much water under the bridge
he may not care anymore,
dannyb9
Just out of curiosity did you check out Cunninghams free plans available in the old issue of Sea Kayaker magazine? Sounds like what you want is what a lot of folks have been coming up with over the years in s&g,Shearwaters Mergansers to the Putz Walrus. I did the same morphing a CLC Northbay way beyond it’s original lines for better wind/wave handling.
i’ve seen pics
of the merganser, that looks like a sweet boat. i already did the derivative ‘charlette’ it can be seen at http://community.webshots.com/user/dannyb9
charlette is about the only boat i paddle now.
wkerriganoh and Coffee
wkerriganoh. Stop arguing. You arent speaking from experience ok? Ask CLC. Ask Pygmy. Ask Nick Schade. Ask Glen-L. Ask any naval architect.
ONE SET OF PLANS. ONE BOAT. Ask for permission and they may let you build another or they may ask for a fee but ASK FOR PERMISSION.
Coffee. Be quiet. Your giving me a headache and not adding anything of value with your nonsense about hammocks and Uncle Johns skiff. If you had actually built the Uncle John skiff you would understand why you have all those options and that they don't mean you can build 3 different boats out of one set of plans.
Matter of fact, I'm trying to quit smoking and getting sick of both of you so both of you stop it. You are only arguing for the sake of arguing.
I want both of you to go buy a set of plans and build a boat. Then come back and share with the rest of us.
looks good
I paddled a Queen Charlotte once, one of the things that’s neat about paddling some designs that are derived from use is insight into what the designer likes. It’s a big maneuverable boat,needed a little better balance re. weathercocking but I figure anyone who likes a maneuverable kayak likes moving around on waves,Nicks Guillemot fits that category too.
good argument …
David H. Tell people to shut up. That’s the grown up approach. I don’t care if pygmy says you can only build one boat per set of plans. Like someone else said, it is nothing that would ever stand up in court. It doesn’t even make sense. If you have the plans on how to build a boat, why buy the plans again to build the same boat. If you aren’t selling the boats for profit then there isn’t a problem. It would be like buying a book and only being able to read it once. If you want to read it again, then you have to go buy the book again. It has nothing to do with being honest.
blackswamp
thanks. I toned it down.
Now as for you, reading a good book over and over has nothing to do with purchasing a set of plans to build a boat. Your perpetuating a ridiculous line of thought that those of us with experience have already tried to explain. If you cannot accept our word for it then at least let it lie without bringing up more silly points that are not germaine. Order a set of plans and build a boat. Better yet, design your own boat and build it from raw material. You will understand more.
Sorry, but you are wrong
Blackswamp paddler,
Sorry, but you are simply wrong.
Copyright protects the author’s intellectual property from being copied and distributed without his permission. This applies to a book or a set of plans. When you buy the book you may read it as many times as you like. When you buy a set of plans you may look at them as many times as you like. You cannot make copies of either for distribution, not even for free.
When you purchase a “set of plans” to build a boat you are not purchasing ownership of the design. You are not purchasing the designers copyright. You are purchasing the licence to build one and only one boat of that design (this is typical, as we have seen Uncle John will allow you to build multiple boats). This licence agreement is a contract, and it is very much enforcable in court should a designer ever choose to do so.
John Lockwood was in a battle…
…with Chris Kulczycki from CLC for years and has sued (or threatened to sue) Eric Schade over the Merganser design. I’ve never met John, but I have met Chris and found him to be a very friendly guy who thought the whole thing was pretty funny.
All kayak designs are derivative…
…and most are more similar than they are different. There is little that is unique in the kayak design world. Even if one started out with a clean sheet of paper and drew a kayak, chances are that it would end up very similar to someone else’s design. The most commonly used building skills and techniques are freely discussed in the public domain, so that can’t be claimed as proprietary, either. If you buy a book or a set of plans and build a significantly different design (as the original poster apparently did), the design is yours, not the original designers.
On the other hand, if you build a boat according to the plans and you want to build another one like it for yourself, you should at least ask for permission and pay any fee that is asked for multiple boats. If you want to build another for sale, you are legally obligated to pay whatever fee is asked.
Blackswamp paddler,
Evidently you have never created anything original…
Chillax, dude
Sorry my and Coffee’s questions and counterpoints distress you so much. The key here is to keep it civil. I think my posts have been civil. I try to avoid personal attacks, especially in the non-B&B forums. I try to avoid telling people to shut up or be quiet. If my posts still distress you, then the simple answer is to not read my posts. There are a long lists of newspaper columnists whose viewpoints invariably annoy me. I simply don’t read them, unless I’m in the kind of mood that I want to be annoyed. I suggest you consider doing the same.
So, if I DO build my own boat, and run into problems, can I contact you for advice (if I promise to use the plans only once?) 
Advice
You sure can.
Unfortunately you don’t offer …
a relevant counterpoint: instead your argument rests on ‘reading a book once’ as a relevant argument. That’s a silly and childish statement which you continue to repeat.
Childish arguements (sic) get responded to in kind.