A piggy-back on that
Hope you don’t mind. I tend to a problem with the boat not rotating fully. Most sea kayaks are a bit much volume and I often have to actually paddle under the boat to get to the other side. With a heavily loaded boat, you may have inadverdently recreated the normal plight of a lot of average sized women in sea kayaks.
It acts in other ways too - the time that taught me I needed to get a reliable roll on both sides was in current near a surfy area. I just plain couldn’t push up against the current to come up on my right, wasn’t in a good situation to wait for things to equalize out and realized I was
sc*@ed becaused the left wasn’t an option at that point for me. Exited and embrassing rescue followed.
So - also be able to roll with or without a full rotation, and be able to paddle under the boat to both get the boat around and to get to a side where rolling up is possible if the boat wants to capsize and hang on a bad side. Like one that is about to run your head into something hard.
I’m wondering why
some folks have found a fully loaded boat to be harder to roll. In the case of the unsecured water bottle I can understand but I’ve always found it just as easy to roll full as empty.
In fact balance brace is even easier with a full boat suggesting that a loaded boat with less freeboard gives you an advantage. I’m wondering if it’s more a mental block than anything as rolling in conditions is more mind control than any special skills.
For me
Yup, balance bracing a loaded boat is actually easier, since that much more boat than me REALLY balances my weight easily.
As to rolling, once it is going it's not any harder. But I find that it takes more oomph to get it started, and a fully loaded boat is more willing to come back over rather than go past the halfway point and on up if I don't continue the rotation all the way up. Or said another way, if I stop the roll too soon. Timing may be it as much as anything, since it is a little slower to get going. So I have to be a smidge more attentive to make sure that I am at the point of really coming up before I start moving my torso up.
Perhaps it is a matter of my being 135 pounds and if rolling a fully loaded boat it'll be an Explorer LV. As has been discussed here before, the hull is the same volume as the regular Explorer so the volume I am getting going is proportionately more for me than for the average sized guy.
I agree.
Calmness is Job 1.
Weight distribution
would be a factor. Keeping the heavy stuff like water,stove,tent,food etc down low in the hull and keeping clothing jammed above that or closer to the deck would help too.
That said,I’m only 145 lbs and can roll with a “hitchhiker” on my rear deck. That really messes up your CG but still a good powerful sweep and layback and we still come back up.
That’s a great exercise to re-inforce good technique.
Bert
Since the weigth of a boat is…
part of the axis of the roll, perhaps what might hamper a roll is additional gear strapped to the boat, that would be creating more drag in the water. Again, I've yet to step in a 'yak, and I'm a little more than curious as to what the practical and safety limits are for excursion loads in coastal seas.
Erik
There’s always something else to…
…learn.
Some advice
Check out the lessons from Southwind Kayaks in Irvine.
Find the California Kayak Friends webpage, they have activities for mostly experienced paddlers but do have some events for novices.
www.ckf.org
The California Coastline is pretty varied from Lajolla to Monterrey and can be pretty challenging in places like Big Sur and everywhere during storms and big swells. Coming down and taking some lessons from aqua-adventures would be time well spent. They have some of the best instructors you will find south of Santa Cruz.
A pool is a great place
to learn to roll because of the comfortable environment. If the skills for rolling have been learned and practiced in a pool they should also be practiced in the conditions you paddle in and then they will be there when you need them.
A drysuit works great for cold water and a hood of some sort will help more if you plan on being upside down a lot. With a drysuit on and having a good roll you can you can pop back up before your hair gets wet under a hat. A roll is your best form of self recovery and it’s a lot of fun to learn with a good instructor.
Where in Southern Calif are you?
There’s a bunch of us that paddle all year and roll all year as well. Dry suit is really not necessary here, but a good farmer john wetsuit and a semidry paddling jacket are. Also get a neoprene hood to keep the ice cream headaches away.
No need to learn to roll in a pool using a whitewater boat. I still couldn’t roll a sea kayak in the ocean after learning to do that.
There’s a bunch of local people who can teach you to roll in YOUR boat on the ocean.
Check out California Kayak Friends www.ckf.org the local club in Southern California. If you are in the north-west part of Southern Calif, I’m the Ventura County Coordinator for CKF.
Email me and I’ll give you my phone
number. There are a number of intermediate to advanced paddlers who would probably be willing to help.
Also, check out the classes at the Southwest Kayak Symposium in San Diego next month and CKF has our annual FEST in May.
Southwind Kayak Center in Irvine also puts on an intensive weekend of training in Ventura a couple of times a year, and Aqua-Adventures in San Diego does some discount classes with the club - plus the club rebates part of the cost to the member as well.
Lots of possibilities for you.
I’m in Burbank, CA
I saw the website when my interest first got “wet”, I’m going to have
to look it up again! Thanks for the reminder, I’ve been reading through P.Net so much lately…Great advice guys, many thanks, and keep ‘em rollin’…
Erik
Hitchhiker, no diff
Go figure - did this in the pool and it really didn’t feel any different, at least with the Pierdra. I suppose the test would be to try someone front and back on the long boat, see if that’s any difference. Last time I had someone on my deck on the long boat it was about trying to paddle effectively not roll.
That would isolate the question to the effect of load and how I had it distributed. I don’t have weight on my deck, it may look a little cluttered at times with the spare overlapping the chart overlapped by a GPS unit under the rigging, but no weight that would even start to compete with a full load in the bulkheads.
If it comes down to how load is in there, my experience is not likely to be unique. I’ve done enough kayak camping that at least the basics are down pretty well - it’s only once out of a few times now that I have to redo anything after I have floated the boat.
Realistic Practice
No matter where you learn the roll (ocean or pool), you need to learn it right.
Once you get the fundamentals (can reliably hit your roll from set-up position), practice it from an unset-up position on both sides.
It helps to have friends bounce your boat around while you do this, as well as flip your boat over right after you hit a roll to simulate real conditions…EJ’s Rolling and Bracing has a great demonstration of this where he literally throws his son Dane’s boat around, end over end, to practice combat rolling.
This
boat is definately not trim with a hitchhiker on back…hard to paddle that way. but just fine to roll. (he’s around 175 pounds)
http://www.kayakwisconsin.net/hitchhiker.html
I just love to look at this video, so thought that I would post it again.
My son on the back …I’m in the drivers seat 
Best Wishes
Roy
What to roll
As above, an easy rolling sea kayak isn't any harder to learn in than a forgiving WW boat as long as you are fit in there with good contact. It's more about the individual boat than the overall type, especially with the newer WW boats. My Dagger Piedra is slightly less forgiving than our old DS Necky Elaho or my husband's Romany, my Explorer LV is about the same as the Piedra, my 16' Vela is pickier about a good finish than these others and the hardest of all for me is his Pyrhanna Innazone which is a planing hull WW boat.
Learning to roll in salt water is great because the water up your nose when you blow it doesn't hurt like pool or fresh water.
Don't overwork this. You obviously have a great deal of comfort in the water. On open water, it usually works as well to scull (or thrash at first) up in three strokes as roll up in one motion, and in reasonable conditions there is usually plenty of time to do a paddle float re-entry when things don't work right. As long as you are dressed for immersion, avoid starting out paddling in places where conditions can get out of hand too quickly, can hang out comfortably in the water while you solve the problem and go out with appropriate company while you are still at the point where you could need more help, it's all just fun.
Calmness is Job 1.
YES!
My successes rolling in turbulent/moving/dimensional water were all a result of hanging upside down for a bit, relaxing, gathering my thoughts, and then setting up to roll.
My failures rolling in conditions were mostly a result of rushing.
I imagine in real ww it is different.
combat rolling…
besides being a great training tool to simulate “unfriendly” conditions, it sounds like a lot of fun too. I’m wondering if using other paddlers as you suggest shortens the learning curve by managing additional stresses. I’ll be looking this up with great interest!!!
Erik
right on…
…it seems that the issue of cold shock may not be as big of a thing as I might of originally thought. It’s great to read all these anecdotes, it puts a little more reality and focus on all the “day dreaming” I’m currently engaged in until I get a boat this spring!
Erik
Great video!!!
That’s an awesome example!!! Thanks for sharing that!
Erik