Possible Club
I am looking at the possibility of forming a club in Lake Havasu City and I really appreciate this thread. Now I am thinking of forming a loose group under and internet forum such as Yahoo with just a moderator. No organized trips but if someone is going paddling let people know so they can join them. I am thinking that this would eliminate the liability issues. A lot of informal paddles such as the Norcal Tahoe trip are done on this web site. I would appreciate any comments on this possibility.
Look At My “Profile”
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 11:22 AM EST –
this exactly what I do for surf kayaking. For awhile I tried to get folks in the our club to join me. Very few ever did. It could be that I am not "certified", or I am out of the club's "mainstream" or a combination of both. So, I did a bunch of surfing on my own. Yeah, sometimes in pretty "hairy" conditions.
I post on a number of paddling boards and jump on any opportunity to surf with others (or ww paddle) and have some very consistent partners. The yahoo bulletin board really has helped facilitate info about different breaks, conditions and get togethers (S&G). What has been really important is an evolution of compatible paddlers in terms of interests and outlooks.
sing
harmonic
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 11:26 AM EST –
Maybe paddling in harmony requires this.
harmoniousness -- (compatibility in opinion and action)
Just Curious
How much of the sudden rise in both the cost of the insurance and deductible is due to the insurance companies looking for ways to pad their losses from the hurricanes. They did this after Andrew hit often passing the cost onto people who had no connection with those weather related events. I have not come across anything that suggest this, but am curious.
I guess I’m not following this NSPN
liability coverage being dropped. Has the aca dropped all club liability coverage, or just NSPN’s? Can you clarify?
WMCKA still has pool sessions they seem to be covering?
Personally I think the ACA liability coverage for events stands outside the certified/non certified argument. I think for events where you are charging money such as for the club to organize pool sessions that are open to the public but advertised under the club umbrella it is essential to have liability coverage for any accidents so that the club and it’s members aren’t liable for any accidents that happen during the event. How can this be a bad thing. I volunteer for the club as an officer and I love the pool sessions, so I don’t think I would want some poor bastard to come in and slip, drown, or otherwise maim themselves and then be able to sue me over that. How can that be wrong? Who else is going to inexpensively cover event liability?
Try TWICE that
The yearly dues used to be $20 individual or $25 family. It went up to $40/50 with ACA affiliation, plus $5 more if you didn’t renew at/around calender year’s end.
And the most active paddlers did pull out. The ACA gig is a rip-off, especially now that they’ve deleted the insurance coverage for the last few months of the year.
All ACA Clubs…
are impacted if you follow Flatpick’s and Dr. D’s posts.
sing
This’d be discriminatory, but…
one way to reduce the likelihood of being sued is to only go with single adults without any dependents. Think of who usually files such lawsuits: immediate family members.
I think you’re onto something
For more than 10 years I had State Farm auto insurance. Rates were reasonable. Suddenly, the rates shot way up. The announced “average” increase was supposedly x percent. But I got a Double-x percent increase despite having a clean driving record and being a 45-year-old female.
I switched insurance companies. The new company told me that one of the reasons SF was making such a large increase was because they had invested poorly and needed to quickly make revenue.
What are bicycling clubs doing?
I don’t remember lawsuits ever being mentioned but the potential is there just as it is for club paddling events. Weather is slightly less of a factor, but danger from autos (road biking) or rocks/trees (mtn biking) exists.
Certification and insurance
In three threads the discussion has been about certification and insurance and how they affect clubs. I don’t think that leaders on a club trip need to be certified but instructors should be. If there is not going to be insurance for instructors then no one will instruct. If they don’t instruct how do new paddlers advance? As for officers of clubs trying to safeguard the club wanting to have some kind of liability insurance I believe they are doing as they should to protect themselves and the club. If, as an officer, they would end up personally liable why would they want to serve? For those of you who don’t like the club atmosphere then drop out or don’t join, but don’t try and dictate how things should be run just because someone on a trip is trying to safeguard the participants. The feeling I’m getting from some of the posts is one of isolation. We will all go out paddling alone and stay that way. We won’t approach other paddlers for any reason, even to converse. If we see someone in trouble we are going to move on. Since we have no way to receive quailified instruction we aren’t educated enough to provide assistance and therefore can’t. To avoid liability and protect ourselves and family we must not offer assistance in case something goes wrong. Shoot, we can’t even meet up with a couple of paddlers via a post on the internet. If one of them has trouble on a trip we can’t help him anyway. Ah hockey puck, I can go on but you get the idea!!
I’m having a hard time understanding
where this info comes from? You said it didn’t come from the website? Where did it come from, a letter, a phone call? Dr. Disco? Flatpick? Did you get a letter from the ACA?
Because no one informed our club at all about these changes? Unless these changes merely apply to lessons or certifications? Because our pool sessions are under their events liability.
Any one have an answer?
And, You’re Reading Some Of Us…
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 1:37 PM EST –
Wrong. I believe very much in skills development AND personal responsibility. I also think "clubs" can be a good thing, especially for those who need the "comfort" of a group and enjoy being in a group.
There are, however, a host of complex and interrelated issues being discussed. Of course, folks should not have to risk their financial well being to help a club. But it is there for all the club officers and "trip leaders" because they have assumed the responsibility of "leading" and thus implicitly accepting the responsibility of those under their wings. Now, that the "liability" is established, the discussion goes to, "Well, how do we reduce liability?" All of the sudden, the "answer" is to have all club leaders "certified." However, what is emerging is that such "certification" is in no way "insurance" that your liability insurance coverage won't be terminated either. Thus, the current predicament of ACA affiliated clubs having the coverage dropped. Now, the liability risk for such clubs make running current and future activities iffy. Afterall, who in the clubs wants to assume personal risk?
As far as not being affiliated with a club, don't assume that such a person is not interested in safety and skills development, and wouldn't help out if they see someone in trouble. I believe the "good samaritan" rule kicks in if you step in to help try to save a life that you are no way "responsible" for, as in a "leader" or "instructor" led trip. In fact, not being affliliated with a club, spurs some of us take greater responsibility for ourselves in terms of the skills and the judgement to be safe out there because we don't expect someone to "bail" us out when the poop hits the fan.
It is a very complex situation with no easy solution. What it does require is for folks to seriously consider as much info as possible and make a choice about how they want to proceed.
sing
They’ll Answer
but I am reading that Flatpick is serving on the ACA Coastal skills committee. So, he has the inside scoop? Dr. Disco’s clubs actually received a letter as did NSPN (from what I read at the NSPN website).
sing
ACA sent a letter
It supposedly was sent to all certified instructors, instructor trainers, and the like and all clubs. The website has a brief statement plus a copy of the letter. Check out:
http://www.acanet.org/pdf/instructornotice.pdf
Actually, it’s worse than that
My understanding of the ACA situation is that the carrier (The St. Paul) issued a binder early in the year, but didn’t send the actual policy until August or September (apparently, this is common practice). They highlighted a few minor changes, but upon reading the policy, the ACA found that there were major reductions in coverage that they hadn’t been told about. They had unknowingly been operating with this reduced coverage for 8-9 months, thinking they had the same coverage as the previous year. Very deceptive and underhanded on the part of the insurance carrier, to say the least.
David, the BOD of the NSPN is pursuing several possible avenues to obtain insurance, in case the ACA can’t get their act together or the cost gets too high through them. As soon as we have something concrete, we’ll report to the membership.
D&O insurance
It’s possible to get liability coverage for the Directors and officers of a corporation, without buying a blanket policy to cover everyone in the club. It may be something worth looking into. We’re actively doing so currently.
You’re absolutele right
All this noise about mandatory certification and/or insurance is nonsense. It’s an unrelated and unnecessary distraction from the serious issue under discussion here.
ConnYak and RICKA do the same
It’s simply a matter of approach. Some clubs choose to try to avoid the liability issue by being “non-entities”. So far, it seems to have worked for them.
Other clubs like NSPN incorporate for specific reasons and try to offer insurance for participants and trip leaders. The main appeal of this is to people who feel more comfortable taking structured trips with experienced leaders.
As Sing knows, we also have lots of “show and go” trips which are called by members on an informal basis. They’re not covered by insurance, nor are the people calling such trips required to do any paperwork. Most of the more challenging trips are of this type.
I guess you could say that the NSPN is “two clubs in one”.
“eliminate liability isseu” – unlikely
As has been discussed in another thread (and lots elsewhere), if there is an incident, particularly a death, everybody in sight can and will get sued no matter what structure you’ve established or haven’t. You may have a strong legal case, but what good is it if it takes you $10,000’s and enormous personal effort to win it. And that’s just the beginning.
IMHO, liability insurance is the best way to go, at least for “official” club trips, so there’s always that alternative.
–David.