But what would that cover?
Would a D&O policy provide coverage for an on-the-water accident, or only for financial and similar stuff arising out of the directors’ and officers’ responsibilities in the operation of the club as an entity?
Professional instructors…
…should be certified and insured. When people pay for instruction, they expect a level of expertise and are probably more likely to sue if a mishap occurs.
On the other hand, our club’s training programs follow a “mentor” model. None of us make a dime on it. We are simply a group of people with a common interest sharing our knowledge with other like-minded individuals. I cannot imagine anyone suing any of the club’s instructors. BTW, some of us do hold ACA and/or BCU certs, but many don’t, myself included.
That’s What I Was Wondering
I have D&O covering fudiciary and administrative functions, e.g. mistakes with finances, protection against charges of discrimination, etc.
Liability for program operations is a whole other matter. This is to cover injuries and death that may occur during the course of providing activities. Such coverage needs include directors, staff and supervised volunteers (in this case, trip leaders). Without this, you have to seriously consider whether to continue as is, cease operations and/or modify significantly.
sing
As I Asked Above…
if and when you find this policy, let me know what it costs. I am interested personally and professionally. The latter given that I have seen nothing but the curtailing of programs, despite no record of lawsuits, every year when the agent comes to do an “operations audit.”
sing
Not an issue
Hurricane losses are property insurance, and liability insurance is casualty insurance. The two are unrelated. Their rates are separately calculated, and heavily regulated by the states.
Now if your homeowners’ property rates were to go up, you might be right…
Wayne
D&O coverage
It would cover losses arising from the actions or failure to act by directors & officers only. It applies to any actions or inactions realted to the conduct of the organization.
Wayne
Not sure I’m following
Are you saying that the policy would cover any potential liability of the officers and directors if, for example, someone drowned on a club-sponsored trip?
Yep
Bait and switch
I would think that’s illegal.
They got their money upfront for a product that they did not deliver. So you paid a full year for only a few months of the agreed-upon insurance, then got a lesser product for most of the year, and NONE at all for the last couple of months.
So, theoretically, if you had
D&O coverage, and the club itself had no assets to speak of, the only remaining targets would be trip leaders. And if you had 15-20 people on your club board, and if you had a policy that each club trip must be led by a director or officer, you’d appear to be pretty well covered. And yet D&O coverage for small nonprofit organizations is relatively cheap, while general liability insurance can be very expensive. I think I’d want to read that policy very carefully before I relied on it, because insurance companies generally have a lot of smart people working on policy forms to protect them from providing coverage that they didn’t mean to provide, and if it were that easy to work around the high cost of liability coverage they would have caught on by now. Maybe an exclusion in there somewhere?
Offering help might still be OK
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 4:45 PM EST –
I believe this varies by state, but there is a Good Samaritan immunity in effect where I live: if someone tries to save an injured person and does what he believes to be the right things but the injured person dies, there is some protection for the would-be rescuer. I don't know much about this--am just going by what someone (in law enforcement) told me.
The same immunity does not apply to professional health care givers or others with "official" roles where it is assumed they have the correct training.
If I have misconstrued any of the above and someone here knows what's really the case, please correct me.
My reference was only
to some of the posters. For example, 1 dropped out of a club because the dues were doubled in order to become ACA affiliated. They didn’t see the benefit to themselves for the added expense. If they are completely self sufficient and have no need of anything offered by a club then go. Another was upset about a nitpicky leader trying to micro manage every part of the trip. Think about that from the leaders perspective and put yourself in their position of “assumed responsibility”. Granted some people lack leadership capabilities but maybe it was his first attempt. None the less he was willing to step up to the plate. I don’t think that a club wishing to have some liability insurance is a selfish thing when it protects fellow club members who are willing to give back some of what they have learned. Someday the naysayers may want to assume a greater responsibility themselves and when they do protection will be there.
I began my paddling as a loner and spent many years that way. My only avenue of education was the web. I moved to an area that had a club and met many people that shared my desire to paddle. It opened up avenues of education that had not been available to me. The club membership has grown phenomenally. The single most important thing we are faced with now it educating the new paddlers. They come loaded with questions. We have been more of less forced into a educational roll. I wish I had found something like this before I did so I know what they are going though. The ACA provides a lot of educational material over and above “insurance” and I feel that an increase in dues is worth that. Our dues will double because of our affiliation. Big deal, $12.00 to $25.00. I’m already an ACA member anyway so in actuality mine goes from $12 to $5.
I just disagree with some of the opinions, thats all.
Joe
“…how do new paddlers advance?”
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 5:10 PM EST –
The old fashioned way.
A good deal self taught. The rest passed on by family, friends, associates (peers & betters), and other Mentors. Then there are supplemental sources like books and videos.
Most paddling skills for most paddlers are learned via these methods anyway.
Nothing against formal instruction, but "formal" or "informal" is not the limiting factor. Neither is "certified", "insured", or otherwise "sanctioned" by bureaucrats.
Professional "Instructors" probably should have some sort of documented qualifications, and they definitely are more likely to be sued. Same with "Guides" or any paid professional. It tehn follows they need insurance.
Mentors and mentees(?), no. Good instruction is very valuable. Good Mentors are priceless.
Total Respect For
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 5:29 PM EST –
Where you're coming from and your experience with clubs. Clearly you're involved and it's a positive experience. Your worry now is indeed the liability issue, as it should be for those who serve as officers and trip leaders. Your ACA membership is not covering you apparently.
My own thinking is that I rather not "serve" in a club capacity which is not to say that I don't serve. Quite contrary, I honestly can say that I don't know how many folks that I have taught to roll, or do a self and assisted rescue, just because they came up to me and asked while I am doing a lake practice on my own. The difference is that I don't ask for a club membership and I don't claim to be a "professional." Likewise, they don't get a bill from me either. :) I just enjoy working and paddling with those who are receptive and rather not deal with the bureaucratic stuff personally. I have enough of that at work and don't need to drag that into my personal activities.
As far as "rescues" are concerned, I can also say I have pulled some folks and equipment out here and there. I won't claim that my actions saved their lives. But if it came down to that, I would probably try knowing based on more than several occaisons in other areas where I acted even though doing so put my own personal safety at risk.
I too am currently an ACA member. Yup. It's true. It came with my club membership. I get the Paddler Magazine and advertisements but haven't seen much else from ACA. Actually... I can't even read Paddler Magazine 'cause the print is too small for my aging eyesight. Pics look pretty though. :) I am not sure I will renew it with my club membership. I am still pondering. Again, I know these affiliations offer concrete benefits for folks. But, I can honestly say that I don't feel that I have benefited much directly. Rather, I have learned a bunch from folks on the web, folks I have met here and there, on the river and in the surf, and from going out and practicing whatever I have picked up from materials and folks. There are probably several paddling and/or conservation organizations that I would likely support not because I derive direct benefits but because of their advocacy and educational efforts in general. Whether this will be in lieu of ACA, I don't know.
sing
That will vary by location
I started out self-taught (more like un-taught!) and then took a few lessons, both the paid kind and the volunteer kind. (The volunteer instruction was every bit as good as the commercial kind, BTW. Kudos to anybody who shares their knowledge and time with others, certified or not.)
Almost all of the lessons I took were out of state, because there is so little offered here.
So while it is possible to learn without taking commercial lessons or being a member of a club with “official” instructors, it’s a more difficult, more expensive, and slower process.
That is a big reason I’d like to see a strong, smart club here: it could offer things that money can’t buy close to home. And even though I love paddling alone or with one or two friends, it’s also fun to meet new people now and then, too!
Parents sue!
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 5:52 PM EST –
So, you'll also have to go out only with people whose parents are... umm... not around any more.
--David.
Always greener on the other side.
I live in all year summer and more water than can be paddled in a lifetime. I would still have to drive for lessons. To get beyond basic stuff would be about 4 hours each way (some available options at 2 hour drive on occasion), probably hotel stays, and only available on a very limited basis.
That’s assuming I could get that specific time off and afford it all. So far I can’t. To have wider ranges of offerings in more interesting conditions I’d have to go as much as 8 hours - or fly somewhere and rent equipment. More money and more time off.
Don’t think you’re so alone in what you perceive as difficulty. Few of us outside the NE and NW have access to advanced training and certification programs in reasonable distance. It’s big country - with very few programs.
Don’t assume clubs are the answer either. Most of them here are either lily dipper societies or too mixed and irregular to be of much use in the way you are talking about. Some good paddlers, but not enough to even put together rescue practices. Few if any who would want to paddle when/where/how I do, or work on the things I want to work on. I do get together with other paddlers, but most often connected to a race or other paddling event.
If I relied on clubs or professional instruction for anything I’d spend a lot of time waiting instead of paddling. Some opportunities coming up in Jan/Feb I may be able to take advantage of. If not, I’ll keep learning from the water (a thoroughly unbiased and infinitely wise teacher).
I got the letter
I’m an ACA canoe instructor, the very first level. I got the letter last week, and the previous posters accurately reflected the content. Classes we had already registered with ACA were still covered, but new classes would not be covered.
Why certification? I instruct Girl Scouts, ages 11-15 primarily. I paid for my instructor training out of my own pocket, and I do all my instructing for free. GSUSA safety requirements are that an activity leader for girls needs to be certified as either an ACA instructor or to be certified in American Red Cross Small Craft Safety-Canoe, an obsolete program. Am I the best paddler in the world? Absolutely not! I am a safe paddler however, and I am a good instructor of beginning canoeing. Did I learn a lot from my instructor training? Absolutely! Do my girls benefit from my training? Again, absolutely! I envy all of you who are from areas with lots of paddling clubs; there aren’t any close to me. I’m lucky to find a few friends to paddle with a couple of times a year, so if it wasn’t for the ACA class I would not have learned even as much as I have.
Most of the posters here work with adults or are solitary paddlers. Only a few others who have posted who work with schools. Where do the kids learn if not from an adult who wants them to enjoy the outdoors in a safe manner? Not all kids come from a background that exposes them to the outdoors. Don’t we want even more paddlers who value wilderness, rivers, and their environment? Correspondingly, most schools want certification, or at least their insurance companies want certification!
Pikabike has it right
Stock prices for insurance companies went up after the hurrcane because they can raise their rates. the hurricaines worked to theri financila advantage, or so the markets said.
Hard for a big player to make money in a stock market that’s essentially flat for the year though.
same thing for malpractice rates, when the market does badly the insurance companies must make their money off rates rather than the market. so the must raise rates.
My Work Involves Children, Youth
– Last Updated: Nov-29-04 8:22 PM EST –
and families in the city. I started as a youth worker and one of the things I found very challenging, eye opening and, sometimes, life changing was to take youth outside the city environment to the outdoors. I got trained in Outdoor leadership through AMC, did CPR and First Aid and used to lead youth out for a weekend to nearly a week of backpacking and camping. I used to lead ski trips and fishing trips as well.
As an administrator, I paid for staff to get outdoor training, CPR and First Aid. I signed our center up with AMC to get leadership training and equipment usage as a result. I made connections with the Youth Enrichment Services which conduct ski trips and biking trips as well as some canoeing.
We don't do most of these activities anymore... You know why? Because the insurance coverage became too much. Finally the policy carrier have outright prohibited these activities lest we lose the rest of our coverage for other programs.
I am willing to take the personal risk. I actually loan my cabin in ME for youth groups to get a more "civilized" taste of the outdoors. They camp on the front lawn and "swim" (more like "dip") in the stream in the back and have camp fires and cookouts. Talk about the possible "liability..." I just make sure the youth workers on these trips are the ones I would trust with my own kids...
However, when it comes to the center, I don't have many options. I have a board of directors whose first (and rightful) duty is to protect the center's operations and its staff. Having the necessary coverage is crucial when you have over 3000 folks coming through the programs on an annual basis.
I understand the liability issues. I understand the "certification" pieces when it relates to this. I just choose not to get too meshed in it when it comes to my own personal stuff. Yeah, I also coach and train with several folks in martial arts. Likewise, I accept no fee and give no certficates or rank. (BTW, I had done that and am no longer interested in that whatsoever). All they have from me is opportunity for training that fits their mode. I am not offended when folks walk away because they don't share my particular perspective on training, or whatever. I do have a few folks who have trained with me for over a decade and their decision to continue to stay with me with nothing but the promise of training is enough for me.
sing