Adding Canoe Thwarts

So, I bought a used Old Town Tripper 172 but, even for a Tripper, I think it is an older model. The seats are benches, but not molded, and there is only one shaped thwart (not shaped like a yoke), in the center of the boat where a yoke should be. This thwart is a little rotten and on it’s way out, so I’m going to replace it with a yoke from the Old Town site.

There is no thwart between the “yoke” and the stern as you see in most canoes these days. (There are also no holes in the gunwales suggesting that there was a thwart but it is missing). So, I’m wondering what people’s thoughts here are regarding whether to install a thwart in that position or to leave the original design alone. What are the pros and cons of adding one? Are there any huge reasons not to (like screwing up the shape of the boat or doing more harm than good in some way)?

Thanks!

You don’t have an original design IMO. Lots of people here have Trippers and there is in addition to the center yoke a yoke in front of the stern seat
The last two numbers of the HIN are at the stern and should be etched in the hull They indicate the year made.

Agree with KM. I would replace the single thwart with a new yoke, as well as add at least one additional stern thwart. Are there any holes in the gunwale where the stern thwart should be?

You could also consider adding a third thwart a little behind the bow seat as in the Bell Northwind, Clipper 17 Prospector and some other designs for additional strength.

No there are no holes where the stern thwart should be. That’s what is puzzling.

The gunwales could have been replaced. You aren’t dealing with a historic antiquity
Look at images on line
They all show the Tripper with a stern thwart.
Some people have added a thwart just in back of the bow seat.

Most tandem canoes longer than fifteen feet in OAL are going to need more than just a single center thwart/yoke. There are a few exceptions, such as some of the Mad River composite tandems in the 16-16 1/2’ range which did pretty well with just the two seats and center yoke. But Royalex boats like the Tripper tend to be much less stiff (floppier) than composite boats, and with just a center thwart you will likely get a lot of gunwale twisting in a boat that long.

Advantages of additional thwarts are increased rigidity. With less flex and twisting the hull is stronger and paddles a bit better. Disadvantages are additional weight, additional expense, more holes in the gunwales, and less flexibility in loading and unloading gear.

You definitely want to place the center yoke so that the canoe’s weight is balanced if you want to use it to portage the canoe. You have some flexibility in placing a second thwart. If you plan to use the canoe for tripping and want to be able to carry rigid items like blue barrels, take that into consideration when determining the placement of the additional yoke. Placing a yoke right behind the bow seat would probably allow the greatest degree of flexibility in terms of carrying gear, but placing the thwart midway between the center yoke and the stern seat probably makes a little more sense structurally.

If you have not already ordered a yoke from Old Town, I would check out Ed’s Canoe because I think you will find a better price for yokes and thwarts:

http://www.edscanoe.com/caco.html

You canoe is definitely not stock so I would check the beam of your canoe at center with the current thwart. Old Town listed a beam at center of 37" for the Tripper. That would be the width of the molded hull, from outside edge to outside edge, not counting the width of the outwales. So you would probably need a center yoke at least 36" in length. The length of the supplemental thwart will depend on exactly where you want to place it.

@pblanc said:
Most tandem canoes longer than fifteen feet in OAL are going to need more than just a single center thwart/yoke. There are a few exceptions, such as some of the Mad River composite tandems in the 16-16 1/2’ range which did pretty well with just the two seats and center yoke. But Royalex boats like the Tripper tend to be much less stiff (floppier) than composite boats, and with just a center thwart you will likely get a lot of gunwale twisting in a boat that long.

Advantages of additional thwarts are increased rigidity. With less flex and twisting the hull is stronger and paddles a bit better. Disadvantages are additional weight, additional expense, more holes in the gunwales, and less flexibility in loading and unloading gear.

You definitely want to place the center yoke so that the canoe’s weight is balanced if you want to use it to portage the canoe. You have some flexibility in placing a second thwart. If you plan to use the canoe for tripping and want to be able to carry rigid items like blue barrels, take that into consideration when determining the placement of the additional yoke. Placing a yoke right behind the bow seat would probably allow the greatest degree of flexibility in terms of carrying gear, but placing the thwart midway between the center yoke and the stern seat probably makes a little more sense structurally.

If you have not already ordered a yoke from Old Town, I would check out Ed’s Canoe because I think you will find a better price for yokes and thwarts:

http://www.edscanoe.com/caco.html

You canoe is definitely not stock so I would check the beam of your canoe at center with the current thwart. Old Town listed a beam at center of 37" for the Tripper. That would be the width of the molded hull, from outside edge to outside edge, not counting the width of the outwales. So you would probably need a center yoke at least 36" in length. The length of the supplemental thwart will depend on exactly where you want to place it.

Thanks! All of that is super helpful. I do think I will put for Ed’s Canoe. I’ll probably put the thwart between the time and stern. Any tips for drilling vinyl gun Wales?

If you contact Old Town they may be able to tell you the key dimensions for the yoke and rear thwart to help you make sure you aren’t changing the overall shape of the boat. You need to know the distance between the holes on the yoke and the rear thwart plus the distance between (center of) the yoke and (center of) the rear thwart so you know how far back from the yoke the thwart should be. Make sense? Then the boat should have the stock shape and if you later decide to add another thwart behind the bow seat you just cut it to length, drill and bolt it in.

I’ve seen recommendations for use of a special drill bit - a type for which I don’t even remember the name since I hadn’t heard of it and didn’t know what it was in the first place - but I’ve drilled vinyl gunwales with a standard bit and found that it worked just fine. I can’t recall if I might have used a center punch to create a slight dimple to aid in centering the bit I think I did, but with no need to tap it with a hammer (just hand pressure is enough). Vinyl is soft enough that you can actually get that same starting dimple by pressing on the drill before it starts to spin. If in doubt, make a starter hole with a much smaller bit than the size you need, because that will eliminate any risk of the bit wandering during start-up (I think that’s being more cautious than necessary, but it should help ease any concerns about being accurate).

I’m not sure the Tripper is 37 inches wide. Most in our group have Trippers and I a Dumoine which I know is 37 inches wide. It looked like Fat Boy on shore with all the Trippers
But the look at the boat lineup was of course with gunwales
I’d double check though an inch or two isn’t going to change rocker appreciably

Eric is probably thinking of Forstner bits, but you don’t need them to drill holes in boat hulls or synthetic gunwales. Regular jobber bits will do fine.

The way I install thwarts and yokes is to first determine the length of the thwart required and trim the thwart or yoke to that length. Sometimes the shape of the hull at the sheerline will dictate that the wood be cut at an angle rather than perfectly square. A hull with sides that pinch in versus one that flares out at the gunwale will require the wood to be cut at opposite angles. A thwart placed between the center and stem requires that the end be trimmed off at an angle that matches the angle the gunwale is making (relative to the center line of the hull) at the point you wish to install it.

When you drill holes through the yoke or thwart, you want to be sure they are far enough from the cut end so they will not break though the end grain. So I often drill the holes through the gunwales at a slight inward angle rather than straight down. I also like to leave a very small gap between the cut end of the thwart and the side of the hull on each side so that the thwart or yoke is not pressing directly against the side of the boat. So take that into account when you trim your thwarts. It goes without saying that for a yoke, or a shaped thwart, you need to trim an equal length of wood off of both ends so that it is properly centered.

Once I have the thwart trimmed and the position for the screw holes marked on the gunwales, I use C clamps to fix the thwart to the underside of the gunwales in the correct position. I place a thin shim of wood or plastic between the cut end of the thwart and the hull on each side to maintain that small gap before I tighten up the C clamps. I then drill starter holes down through the gunwales and the wood all in one go, starting with a bit much smaller than the final size required. The best hardware for mounting thwarts and gunwales are stainless steel machine screws of #10 size. You can get them with 24 or 32 threads per inch (24 tpi is more common) and either will work so long as you have the right size nuts. You can get either flat head or pan head machine screws. On synthetic gunwales I like to use stainless steel finish washers on the tops of the gunwales so that the holes need to be no bigger than the shanks of the screws. You need screws long enough to go through the entire gunwale and the thickness of the wood and still have enough length for a washer and nut. I like the nuts with the nylon inserts. If you are going to install one yoke and one thwart you will need four #10-24 or #10-32 Phillips head machine screws of appropriate length, four #10 finish washers, four #10-24 (or #10-32) nuts with nylon inserts, and four #10 flat washers, all stainless steel.

After you drill your first small holes, loosen the clamps and look at the hole through the thwart. If the hole is not quite centered or is not as far from the cut edge as you would like, you can adjust it a little as you go to larger bits. The final size of the holes in the gunwales need only be just large enough for the machine screws, but I like to use the next size larger drill bit for the holes in the thwarts. The reason is as the wood soaks up oil, varnish, or polyurethane it will swell a bit and the holes will narrow down a little. You would like to be able to remove the hardware and the thwart later without the wood chipping.

Once you have the holes drilled, before you install the thwart or yoke, apply some type of finish to the cut ends of the thwart and to the holes in the thwart to protect the end grain against moisture penetration which will rot the wood. If the thwart has an oil finish you can use oil. Otherwise, I would use varnish or polyurethane. If you don’t already have something, Helmsman’s Spar Urethane (made by Minwax) will work well and can be purchased in small cans. I use pipe cleaners to get the finish down into the screw holes.

Personally, I would not sweat the exact location of the stern thwart. If you want to keep a stock appearance, you can get a good visual estimate of where Old Town positioned it from the many photos of Tripper canoes you can find on the net. Install your center yoke first so as to maintain a center beam at the gunwales of 37". Once you have that installed, measure the inside beam of the hull at the position you want to place your stern thwart to determine the length you want to trim it to.

Awesome, thank you all. This is extremely helpful!

You could also contact this guy for some measurements if you like

https://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/boa/d/old-town-tripper-canoe/6532460418.html

:wink:

Here are measurements from my year 2000 Tripper, which is still in it’s original outfitting:
The carry thwart is placed at the balance point, which I suppose can move slightly based on seat placement and the presence or absence of thwarts. On my boat, it is 101" from the tip of the stern deck plate to the inside edge (where it sits on the back of your neck) of the carry thwart. The boat is 37.25" wide at the center thwart, measured to the outside edge of the gunwales.

From the center of the carry thwart to the stern thwart is 30.5". That’s measure from the center of the thwart screws along the gunwale. The boat is 32.5" wide at the stern thwart, outside gunwale to outside gunwale.

I think a front thwart is not as important because the front seat provides some stiffening between the gunwales. The stern seat is a longer distance from the center thwart, so doesn’t provide the same stiffening, making the additional thwart necessary. That’s just me BS-ing, not definitive advice from a canoe expert.

From time to time I add in thwart a short distance behind the carry thwart and solo paddle the Tripper. This thwart supports my butt while I paddle in a kneeling position. While carrying the boat, I’ve never noticed a difference in balance due to the extra thwart, so maybe plus or minus a thwart doesn’t make a big difference in balance. The kneeler thwart probably makes less difference because it is close to the center of the canoe. If that weight was out at the end of the boat I’d probably feel it more.

Hope this helps~~Chip

@BoozTalkin said:
Here are measurements from my year 2000 Tripper, which is still in it’s original outfitting:
The carry thwart is placed at the balance point, which I suppose can move slightly based on seat placement and the presence or absence of thwarts. On my boat, it is 101" from the tip of the stern deck plate to the inside edge (where it sits on the back of your neck) of the carry thwart. The boat is 37.25" wide at the center thwart, measured to the outside edge of the gunwales.

From the center of the carry thwart to the stern thwart is 30.5". That’s measure from the center of the thwart screws along the gunwale. The boat is 32.5" wide at the stern thwart, outside gunwale to outside gunwale.

I think a front thwart is not as important because the front seat provides some stiffening between the gunwales. The stern seat is a longer distance from the center thwart, so doesn’t provide the same stiffening, making the additional thwart necessary. That’s just me BS-ing, not definitive advice from a canoe expert.

From time to time I add in thwart a short distance behind the carry thwart and solo paddle the Tripper. This thwart supports my butt while I paddle in a kneeling position. While carrying the boat, I’ve never noticed a difference in balance due to the extra thwart, so maybe plus or minus a thwart doesn’t make a big difference in balance. The kneeler thwart probably makes less difference because it is close to the center of the canoe. If that weight was out at the end of the boat I’d probably feel it more.

Hope this helps~~Chip

Awesome, thanks! I have pretty much decided to replace the center thwart that it currently has with a proper yoke and then add the stern thwart. I will start with your measurements as a guide.