All-around WW Kayak 4 River Run/Play????

Runner or Play/runner
Diesel and Mamba are good river runners (I’d add the Remix and Hero for something a little looser on the waves). For river/play, the Fun and Fuse would be my top picks.

Wavesport Diesel
Matt, your recommendation is among the reasons I have a Diesel. It is my ‘go-to’ ww boat. If I am feeling confident and want to play more I use my I3, but most times when I want to enjoy myself without worry, I use my Diesel.



I’m 185 lbs and 6’ and find my Diesel 75 just the right size and volume…

Whitewater Kayak
You probably don’t want to start out running Class III and IV in an edgy or slicey kayak. My first run in solid Class III was in a WaveSport Super EZ and every other dorp gave me a nice stern squirt or threw me around. Other newbies that day had no trouble in their higher volume river runners and creek boats.



Most any creeker will work fine and the less edgy river runners are okay as well. Look at the longer Nomad for your weight.



jim

Trends
As you have probably gathered from the previous posts there has been a return to producing boats that run rivers well. They are longer, faster, have more volume, and can do things like boofing and and easier creeking. If you want to surf a wave on your way down the river most can do that. But they are not designed to do that easily or well. The hybrid boats tend to lean one way or another. So, for example, the Fun series from Jackson Kayak, has evolved from the 2007 model which was tilted to river running to the current models which are better play boats. I am going to suggest that what you really want is a down river boat that is easy to control, is fast, can turn on a dime, and, if the opportunity comes up, can sit on a wave with not much problem. In other words, get a river runner with some surfing capacity. There are many of those.

Matt, you are going to analyze the WW
boats like you have the SK boats. More power to ya. Lots of good comments here, but some missing are this:



The shorter, river running playboats, such as the Jackson Fun and Fluid Spice, are short because they excel in the shorter waves and holes most common on rivers. The longer boats are great for catching the long and glassy waves we also find on rivers, but not as commonly. The short boats can catch those depending upon skill and eddy service. The short waves and holes are everywhere, though. Short boats rock in these and long boats suck.



Short boats are less affected by boils and cross currents as there is much less boat to grab and your aggressive forward paddling style will take you to the other side. It’s not a fad that most of the boats on your class 2-3 and 3-4 intermediate runs are dominated by 7’ and under play or river running-play boats. The longer boats that are coming back are in the form of harder rails and higher, modern knee position than they are for the fun of a 9 foot RPM in a typical class 3 play hole.



So, don’t look at the Diesel, Burn, Detox, Remix as what you need for class 3-4 play, fun with security. Security, for sure, but not fun. I paddle those boats when I want security over fun, but expect the fun quotient to be less. The shorter holes your bow will be pulled downstream faster than you can blink 2 out of 3 times. Submarining is a way of life with the long bows. Spend more time on class 2±3 and the shorter river runner playboats begin making great sense.



Grab an EJ video and watch those guys play their way down extremely high volume, Zambezi, class 5 for some inspiration to see why those boats were designed. If all you bought were a flat-ish hull like a Burn or diesel, you are way better off than most, but if your mandate is surfing and building true class 3 skills, nothing wrong with a Fun, Spice, CR250, or whatever river running playboat is out there. Take advantage of the dominant surf or play features, which are shorter than the typical long glassy waves we fantasize over. the short boats can do those very well, and as long as your skill and the eddy service meets up, no loss on the big waves. Get a transfer to Ft Lewis and enjoy WW all year long, too.



Dogmaticus

Hmmm
Dogmaticus makes some good points and he knows my preferences a bit as well.



I am tempted to go for a Jackson fun based on his comments, but I really don’t want something with a slicey stern, which most of those more play-oriented boats seem to have.



I remember my first WW boat was a Dagger RPM and that dang stern caught me on more eddlylines than I can count! Really didn’t like that feature and is not something I am used to having to worry about with sea kayaks or canoes.



I imagine most of the more play-oriented boats in teh category of the Fun will have slicey sterns so not sure that is what I want.



Most of the true river runners like the Diesel, Mamba, Hero, may be too muted.



So I guess I need to look at either which is the most playful of the true river runners, or which of the more playful boats lack the slicey stern taht I really want to avoid…???



I agree that a shorter boat may be better, but really not one with a really slicey stern.

on the fly
most class III type rivers have waves with out an eddy.

Most short boats, unless your really skilled or know the wave. They do not cut it. Got a long boat for spring runs. Tore it up. Caught all kind of waves in the main flow.

A RPM or a Redline would be great as they surf great and have enough speed to attain that missed eddy or wave. Probably used ones laying around. just place a want add on some the WW sites like boater talk and NPMB

I am over 200 and they work great for me.

cheers Dan

sterns
My experience is that lots of stern grabbing is a trim issue. In my old Jive it meant that I was getting sloppy and leaning back instead of forward. Many modern boats allow you to adjust the seat position to balance the ends.

Thoughts…
thanks to all for your input. I really appreciate it and this has helped me.



Here is what I am thinking though…I really want to do Class III / IV stuff. I do Class III in a canoe now and a kayak will be much easier than a canoe. I think I will be bored in Class II stuff in a kayak, and want to run the III/Iv stuff with my friends.



And I am used to a sea kayak which has no issues with catchy sterns etc.



And…I can surf a 18 foot sea kayak on Class II small waves…and a 14 foot canoe…so I don’t think that a 8 foot boat is going to be a handful.



I think I may look at getting a Diesel/Mamba/Hero or similar boat and then possibly adding a more playful boat later, like the Fun.



My girlfriend wants to get into WW too, and she is a total novice. The Diesel/Mamba/Hero type boat would be good for her too. I could use this boat for bigger stuff for myself, and then for my girlfriend for her to learn on smaller stuff when I could paddle something more playful.



I think this may be a good plan



Now the decision is which one of these river runners to get. I think it is probably a toss up. The Mamba sounds the most user-friendly which may be good for my girlfriend. May have a line on a used Diesel…



Will see.



matt

good plan
I went from a Redline, (too slicey and had trim problems) to a Hero for a season, (built up my confidence and my roll, but limited play) to a 4Fun. Like Goldilocks said, “Just right.” I’m 6’1" and 195 Lbs.

old school full circle…
A third vote for the Necky jive, or the higher volume bliss that I paddle has been a great all purpose boat that kayak builders seem to be going back to

Not a bad plan, Matt. Put the Pyranha
Burn high on your list, though. The Jackson Hero series (new, DO NOT buy their older Hero’s.) Also, add the Liquid Logic Remix to your list. Fluid makes great stuff these days, too.



Forget the Necky Jive. It is a boat from the past. It excels in surfing big glassy waves but is literally too long for your typical class 3 short wave/hole features. I’ve paddled them and followed paddlers with them in typical class 3-4 high volume boils and few had any fun. A lot has happened in WW design since the 90s. A long grabby boat in boils sucks now, like it did then. Like the RPM or Inazone, a lot has happened since the 90s. Remember, we are talking about plastic boats. These are not 3-5,000 fiberglass Tiderace, Valley, Epic or NDK beauties. My buddy just bought a used Fun for 350. A used 2006 or later Burn is in the 500 or more range. WW paddlers are just as big of cheapshits as sea or rec paddlers.



I’m looking forward to a post from you here, or on boatertalk when you figure out what I mean by taking advantage of the short boat’s true genius in design. It took me longer than it will you. They are just plain more fun on your typical class 3-4 play runs than the long boats. Security? Sure. Nothing like the Burn (Hero, Remix, Yadayada, Whatever XL3), when you don’t know the river. Figure out the river and where to be and all the catch on the fly talk fades to truly only those features. Be where it is safe and short boats on solid 3-4 work well ,too. Then again, having a quiver of cheap plastic boats is great to aid the decision. I started with the bigger boat and worked my down to the shorter ones.



Get to know the river, advance grades slowly. Play the hell out of easier rivers because those skills there aid must make moves on harder drops. Class 3 is known as “hard whitewater.” Class 4 is harder and categorized that way. Mistakes there are a big deal and swimming or just plain F*(&^%G up can make for a very bad day that ends in a non-day, if you follow.



Take a lesson or several from WW teachers. Different deal from folks who primarily teach sea or surf. Sooner, rather than later take a WW rescue Tech or Swiftwater rescue course. You will immediately identify some of the hazard-talk you might read here, from that parameter changing course. (I’ve seen endless talk about swimming and wading to shore with your rec boat here in class 3, so no more comment.)



The cool things about whitewater are how previously self made, rugged and independent men and women find how good an idea a team is. The boats are cheap and good water for the day is usually less gas than good salt water. I’m looking forward to your posts on what the deal is between the Remix and Burn-Hero-Villain, Solo, Mystic, Nomad, Mamba, Diesel-Fun, Star, Project, Biscuit, etc. Ask the first folks you meet in an eddy to borrow their “Euro” paddle. Might cure you of that, too.



Dogmaticus

The stern on the Fun is pretty tame,
btw. Not like some playboats. Ity’s really meant to down river and play, not solid play. lots in that category. The Spice is kind like that, too. A very fun river runner that plays well.

InaZone

– Last Updated: Jun-07-11 12:19 AM EST –

You might want to keep the InaZone in consideration. A lot of them around made in multiple sizes and iterations. More playful than a Diesel or Mamba, but plenty reassuring. I tend to think of the InaZones as the Romanys of river runners ;-)

Ditto the Diesel.
I’ve used mine for five years in Cl. III.



(Sheet, there’s enough information overload in this thread to make ya apoplectic.)

Concerns about slicey sterns, GF

– Last Updated: Jun-07-11 11:35 PM EST –

First, as a beginner your GF is going to be spending time in class 2 for a good while, right? I'd really suggest that you look at the current version of the Pyrahnna Inazone series, one of the Jackson Fun boats or whatever Liquid Logic has in their line that is similar over something like the Mamba or the Diesel for her. If she is a smaller or lighter weight person - and I suspect so - these boats are tall and maybe overly protective. Also less quick to hold a smaller standing wave and harder for a smaller person to roll. They are just tall around the torso. Suffice to say we've seen this in local pool sessions.

As to the slicey stern part, I just don't hear it as an issue from users of the above-recommended Jackson Fun boats. Granted we do very little WW, because we are still at the stage where we should go with others better than ourselves for safety, but these are very popular boats in both personal and schooling fleets and for good reason.

I am also not sure that things don't get overwrought. We certainly did hear that about the RPM, and it seems to be urban legend about my little old Inazone as well. But in that boat I have never been dumped or misdirected due to anything from the stern. From the side yes, dumb-arse-user error, but not my tail.

Re one comment above - haven't tried the newer Hero but did try the original (first year they were out) for supposedly my size. Really disliked it. Great for Barcalounger paddlers but not the kind of fun in the beginning stuff you can get out of the smaller boats.

re: river runner vs river play
I started in a remix(actually wore one hull out) and progressed to class 3 & some class 4. A friend started at the same time in river play/playboat. We both progressed, but he got more time in surfing. The remix catches some waves that short boats can’t; but also my friend with a short boat got to spend more time exploring the hole wave or hole.



On the other hand, the remix allowed me to learn to conserve my momentum while performing river manuevers.



This season I bought a jackson superfun and my buddy bought a river runner/creeker. It took both of us some time to make the adjustment: biggest issue for him was ferrying and starting a ferry with a conservative angle. For me it was keeping a centered posture to keep the boat trimmed.



Try as many boats as you can. Unfortunately a boat that is radically different than what you have been paddling may take more than a few sessions to get comfortable on.



The 2010 Jackson Heros are shorter than most river runners, so they may be worth checking out.(another poster mentioned avoiding the older ones, it is the first generation that you want to avoid in my opinion - not the 2008+)


Decision
Well I thought about this a good bit. As I mentioned above I decided to go with a river runner first and then something more playful later.



I was torn on which river runner to get. The Burn, Hero, Diesel and Mamba all seem to get good reviews. I decided to go with a Mamba. I figured all of these boats are probably fairly comparable, but the Mamba got good marks as a beginner boat, appears to have softer chines, and is supposed to be very easy to roll. I figured it may be an easier transition for me from a sea kayak and a good beginner boat for my girfriend. The size is another factor when comparing it to the Diesel. The size that fits my weight is 65 gallons vs. the size Diesel for me is 80 gallons. I figured that the smaller volume boat may be a bit more svelete in its handling.



I also discovered that the installation I work at can order me any kayak at cost! Got the dagger for $600!



Matt

Nothing leaks like a Dagger.
I’ve never seen boats take on water like Daggers. Pair it with a Snapdragon for the ultimate thrill of a gallon sloshing around your ankles as you start the drop. By the way, WW boat handmedowns rarely work. If your girlfriend is your height, weight and inseam it might work. Get a boat for you. Get a boat for her. Used WW boats are cheap. Even on this thread you have all these guys with their boats from the past, these Jives and RPMs and Inazones trying to hock them. You can get a boat from the past for free. I have a friend with a Crossfire he literally cannot give away. Inazone/Jive/RPMs are in the next stage above that, the 200 dollar range. And it’s a rare bird that buys one of those. Have fun.



Dogmaticus

Pyrahnna Zone Boats?

– Last Updated: Jun-09-11 1:12 PM EST –

One of the reasons I mentioned the Inazone is that the manufacturer has put an updated version of this boat back into their line. I am not sure but I think they showed up under some name a few years, so the newer ones should be around as used boats used with some hunting. It is showing as Z.One on their website at this time, and comes in three volumes.

They also seem to still be molding the originals because I see Inazone listed as well - but their description for the Z.One suggests that they have done some major tweaking. Here is what is said about the Z.One:
"A descendent of the legendary InaZone, the Z.One has newly developed features that have been modernized for today`s paddling styles. The paddler gets a substantially greater control over the movement of the kayak on the water, improved balance and a lifted knee position for more efficient paddling strokes."

I am not certain how the substantially greater control part was executed, these things tend to be more subtle in WW boats visually than in long boats, but it does suggest some serious hull work.

I appreciate that there are reasons that older boats are replaced by newer ones in any endeavor, especially WW. But in a case where a design has been retained and further worked on, it seems a bit strong to label the whole lot as outdated. There is a reason that the manufacturer thought it was worth updating these designs.

By the way, one thing I didn't mention is that the older Inazones, mine included, are relatively wet rides unless you use a skirt that is tighter than I am comfortable using. It's not just Daggers that get wet, though they aren't bad at that in either short or long boats.