I think simple in this case is better
as al builds a lot more boats a year than the amateur enthusiast.
Tortured beams are definitely pretty, I’ll give you that, but I don’t think I would want to repeat it on [x] number of kayaks a year, i think angles are easier to QA/QC personally than curves.
Ever notice how much a mark rogers arctic hawk looks like a BBK designs, I doubt that was accidental.
I don’t know how many BBK designs you’ve paddled, but if I had to drop 3500 on a plywood boat, I would definitely buy one. That said, yes you can probably “outdo” Al with a super cool tortured deck beam kayak on one boat one time. Could you outdo him every time? I seriously doubt it. Keep your day job.
greyak–'World’s only QCC 700 outfitted
I think there are two of us! i may be even more ‘brit’ with the Rapid Runner installed…
Take a closer look BBK vs Superior hulls
Wish I had a good bow shot of each.
I understand you’re a local and fan to BBK (and just like arguing with me over just about anything ;). I’m sure BBKs respect is well earned. Not questioning that, nor does it change the hullform.
I liked the Recluse - but not enough to want one. I wanted to love it, but given the reputation it was a bit of a let down.
My comments on the hull aren’t even really about that, and I certainly wasn’t talking about BBK’s build quality either, or making personal claims in that areas as you seem to think (I’ve never built S&G).
It’s about basic design. A more hydrodynamically efficient hull does not have to be that much more work, it can be a minor difference in panel layout and effort. You’re not really going to stick with that time savings to get them out the door argument are you? Slippery slope there.
I’m not saying the BBK hulls are bad, or that they should change a thing. I just see better designs out there (IMO/FMU) and wouldn’t pay that kind of money for one. Not for any S&G actually. I also would not build S&G boats for others for less than that unless I were rich and retired and had some sick love of resin fumes. I understand the pricing and it’s not the issue, though I would just opt for something else non S&G, or build my own.
So you don’t think I have some sort of anti-BBK bias (beyond paddles!) or pro Superior agenda, I wasn’t all that thrilled with an absolutely beautiful Hawk SS I tried either. I like the hull performance better than the Recluse - but overall - just another kayak. Better than average, but nothing I could fall in love with.
“Better than average” is high praise anymore as everything commercial on the sea kayak front is feeling fat/heavy/blah. Some time on your big cold choppy lake would likely reorient my preferences a bit (moving a bit away from long, skinny, LV, light - to something more suitable for the wash cycle and surf zone play). Venue matters.
Maybe, but let’s see your layback in it!
Unless you also have a second generation with cockpit 8" aft of center - and have cut your seat out and moved it 3" forward (to the gen 3/current position).
This change gave me a lot more room from seatback to coaming. Compare picture below with standard QCC top view - and with popular Brit models that also tend to have more distance to coaming.
Different boat now. Better handling and speed too. Layback still isn’t all I’d like it to be - but as good or better than I can do in a VCP Pintail. Definitely easier to roll after surgery too (it was easy - now very easy).
If yours is the newer model you’ll have same balance/paddling performance (same seat position) - which is more nimble than it was with seat farther back.
I don’t think I’d do this on a current production model - with skeg - as that might be going too far forward (at least for me running no skeg 90% of the time). With rudder, I might though as the seat would still be 2" aft of the gen 1 centered cockpit position.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/263402070/1263404620052048071UsOGRQ
All that posted just to confuse new/potential QCC owners and aggravate Brit loyalists! 
Very nice
I would imagine in addition to easier lay back and handling moving the seat forward also imporved thigh contact.
What did you use to affix the seat pan in the new location?
I’ve seen an arctic hawk and a recluse
side by side and paddled both. There is very little difference on the entry point. It’s eerie how close they are.
Same old song.
Lots of talk not a whole lot of walk.
Don’t design things! L
Yup, exactly. I used…
… 3M 5200 (fast cure). Ridiculously strong. Only thing stronger is whatever QCC glued the seat and hangers together with!
Speaking of which, I was going to do something with those seat posts. They just sort of hang/sit there (originally contacted seat edge). But not hurtng anything either…
thought about moving the seat
but i think i’m in the newer generation boat and my legs are long enough, moving the seat would stop my sit and pull the legs in method—a nice rarity in my boats…(did finally get that ability in the Wisper after installing a ‘rolling rib’ of my own build behind the cockpit)…
but of all the mods removing the pegs and installing foam from side to side and top to bottom is the best mod yet.
demo results:
Ok.
Deep breath.
I tried out the Anas Acuta and I did not fit it. My hip bones were jammed against the seat pan and there was no way that I could get comfortable in it. Additionally, the foot pegs did not extend out far enough to be able to stretch and lay on the back deck. Now I know I could cut out the seat, and get rid of the footpegs but even then, I did not like the way it rolled (translate to I did not like the way I rolled the boat). I think I am much more used to a soft chine boat and it seemed to roll very easily, but there was a point where it caught a bit and I was unable to do a really sloooow recovery…kinda either or…but no finess in the control.
Then I tried the Explorer. What a nice boat! Very predictable, very safe feeling, very well mannered. I knew exactly what this boat was going to do every single time. Rolling better, softer medium chine but still a larger volume to push over…would take some extra practice but very very doable, and it would double very well as a camping boat. downside is that it would take 6 months to get one and it is very heavy. and it is 400 more
Same for the Silhouette…fast, pretty nimble, doesn’t roll anywhere as easily and squirrely…fun boat and challenging but not one where I would just want to relax and take pictures in. Did I mention it’s heavy? I mean really heavy?
The Anas Acuta HV. I knew just from looking at it that this boat was cavernous. On top of that it is ugly. It does not have any of the characteristics of the Anas Acuta except for hard chines. Did not bother to take it out and demo it. Not for me.
The OI. (here we go again) I came into the shop with the least favorable impression of any of the boats towards the OI. However, I have to say that this boat was the nicest, well manered, best behaved stable boat out I have tried so far.
I think that the reasons for the reversal in my thought process is because when I had demoed the OI before I was exhausted from a 3 hour Greenland training session with Becky Molina and I did not have the strength to even do a static brace or a scull in the OI when I tried it and this really influenced my thougts towards the boat…this time I was fresh and it was a completely different story. Also I had the back band and the foot pegs and the noodle (see below) where I wanted them this time and this made a huge difference.
I put a pool noodle (large) on the top of my thighs under the thigh braces and brought my legs more together like a SOF and was able to do just about every roll I knew with a little more efort than the SOF but what do you expect? It is more than twice as thick as my SOF. I was also able to lay back on the deck a lot better in this boat than the others, with the Explorer in second place.
Compared to the other boats, it felt very comfortably fast, on par with the Silhouette with a lot less skittishness. Turning radius is large. You have three options: You can either lean over hard supporting with the paddle and lose forward momentum and you will turn the boat pretty quickly but will have to gain forward momentum again, (this is the fastest turn but with the obvious price) or use a bow rudder, lose some but not all forward momentum and have a sort of reasonable turn, or you can just lean and use sweep strokes and as long as you are correcting for something in the distance, you will turn the boat just fine.
It is a much lighter boat and would require minimum modification with the back band (or just take it out) and I would make a “masik” out of a piece of pine board and minicell covering that would be easy to just push out of the way and place between your legs if you just want to go into cruising mode.
so for now, the OI seems to be the one. go figure. I saw the greenlander pro and the greenlander at the shop but did not like the lines or the chines… oh well.
gotta make a decision soon. The wife may change her mind!
Paul
good recap paul…
– Last Updated: Mar-24-06 11:12 AM EST –
I am a little surprised that the hard chines gave you some trouble as your Pete Strand SOF is the epitomy of hard chined. Of course the SOF is more like a surfboard and with the low backdeck and lack of freeboard, you hardly even notice the chines. :)
Here's my personal order of ease of rolling (I am much smaller than you paul)...
1. Outer Island
2. Silhouette
3. Explorer
4. Anas Acuta
The Outer Island and Silhouette are similar in that they are both exceptional rolling boats that are fast. The Silhouette is a bit faster and carves much better (OI is an extremely strong tracker) but it is much more twitchy as you found out. I'm surprised that you found it to not roll well for you and that you thought it was heavy. My Silhouette is slightly heavier than the OI but a whole lot lighter than the Explorer or the Anas Acuta. It definitely wouldn't be a stable platform for taking pictures as it tends to want to slip from chine to chine when sitting still.
Q-boat - I agree that it's ugly (compared to the beautiful Anas Acuta) and cavernous and not for me. I prefer the Nordkapp LV to this boat.
Explorer - This boat is a tank. A big, heavy, well mannered, slow tank. It is a wonderful hull and EXTREMELY confident inspiring. It's sort of the polar opposite of the Silhouette.
OI - Beautiful boat that rolls ridiculously well. It tracks a bit hard for me but it is definitely a wonderful boat with respectible speed. A foam masik (or pool noodle) works great with this boat.
Glad you found your boat! Now the question is whether to go with the keyhole or ocean cockpit on the OI. With your G-style leanings I would think an ocean cockpit would make more sense.
G style leanings…
I guess the 64 dollar question is this: If I can have a touring boat with a small keyhole that can be modified to a rolling machine with a pool noodle or a more semi permanent pine and minicell “masik” I don’t know if it is worth waiting until after July for the Ocean Cockpit. I spoke to Danny yesterday and he mentioned that they were just working on placement and the rest of it now so don’t ecpect the OI/OC anytime soon.
Additionally, right now, I seem to be able to get most of my rolls down with my legs together and tightly gripped by the deck/masik. Maybe I will learn to do them equally as well with mylegs splayed under the thigh braces.
Paul
Wow if it takes that long…
Go with the keyhole! Yes, a a masik works perfectly fine with a keyhole cockpit but an ocean cockpit really allows you to push up on the center of the cockpit without fear of the masic popping out. Of course I use a removable foam masik and I’m sure you could rig up a more permanant solution that would be nice and solid. You don’t actually need a masik for any of the rolls if you have good contact with the thigh braces. It just makes things a bit easier when initially learning as your hipsnap is more directly transferred to the boat. Personally, I practice most of my Greenland rolls these days without a masik but I have smaller kayaks which hold me in pretty well. For me, I like ocean cockpits but they are in no ways a deal breaker regarding boat selection.
pretty sure
I am going to get the OI. someone told me to take a look at the P&H Bahia also as a low volume alternative also but I think I am about done with agonizing over this…
All and all I think I will be pretty happy with the OI…until the next time…
it never ends does it?
My wife wants me to sell the Tempest 170 RM…I said “WHAT???”
blasphemy!
OI - Bahia
The OI is muich lower volume than the Bahia. The Bahia is likely a good boat, but very different than an Outer Island.
Bought 9, sold 5, built 1 -so far
You’ll get used to the recycling aspect eventually. My beloved WS Tarpon sat unused for a year before I finally had to admit it was time to let someone else enjoy it instead if watching it fade.