another newbie that leapt before looking a bit...

Advice
#1

Greetings

I’m usually very demonstrative in my decision making, but now having to backpaddle a bit :wink:

Wife and I have talked about getting kayaks for a while, but not seriously, Had a friend take me on an overnight camping / kayak trip and got hooked. Was in a 10’ poly boat that wandered all over the place but also got to paddle his Necky Pinta 18’ around in an ocean lagoon. Pretty fun stuff.

Of course, a couple of days later we see some kayaks on CL and jump at them. Took a different kayak friend with me for guidance - for what that’s worth. Now realizing that we’ve gone too fast, possibly made 1 mistake, and trying to correct things / make better decisions.

I’m 5’9", 190lbs. Wife is 5’2 130lbs. We have twin 6 year old girls that we will eventually get involved (thought haven’t researched how that works yet). 95% of what we plan on doing is our local flatwater lakes and the occasional large river (we live near the SAC in N.CA.). Not going near that river until we’ve got some experience and confidence built up.

we ended up getting:

14’ Necky Zoar Sport Angler. about 9 years old. Thing had seen the water like 2x. Paid $400. I like to fly-fish so thought this would be a good match.
14’ Necky Looksha It’s a glass/kevlar boat. Well-used and like 15-17 years old. Only 1 bulkhead… This was the possible mistake as I took the advice of my friend to go with it and now not sure (too old; 1 bulkhead). $400.

So, stepping back…I imagine these will be fine for the flatwaters we’ll be going on…upon gathering the rest of of gear, we plan on taking them out, practicing some capsizing, etc.

That being said, was the old looksha a bad idea and should just get rid of it, straight away? Or see if the Mrs. likes it and paddle on?

We’ve secured all but the J-racks for the car…should we pony up for the bowdown’s or rollers or just get cheap J-racks?

Paddles will probably be the Carlisle expedition extolled here, but would like to spend less, of course, since we’re new. Any suggestions welcome. However, I understand it’s one of the most important parts of the equation…

Our kids can’t paddle anything yet…do folks just get something inflatable and tow them around in calm water? Possibly an additional tandem boat or 2?

we have PFD’s for the kids and a bilge pump + some drysacks. Need paddles, PFD’s for us that are paddle-specific and will read the forum for other must-haves. The goal is to get out on the water ASAP and start practicing.

Thanks for your time!

matt (& lisa)

#2

Both boats are large enough that paddling it will be more pleasant for you at 5’9" than your wife at 5’2". So if you go out together, you will likely have to dial it back so she can keep up. And stay away from significant current for a while.

But a first boat is a first boat and you were smart enough to stay used and relatively cheap.

Put a float bag in the front of the Looksha 14, spend some time messing with them and get some good basic lessons this season. So you have a better idea what you want for a longer hold.

I am not personally a big fan of Jbars if one of the folks helping to load is quite short. I suggest stackers, more flexible and you can fold them down when not in use. Also usually cheaper than the other stuff.

#3

Connect with either California Canoe and Kayak (Rancho Cordova) or Headwaters (Lodi). They can tell you about lesson options, connect you with the local clubs to find other paddlers, etc.

If you search meetup.com, there is a “Lodi Paddle Club” you could also check out. They have skills days. They don have a variety of level trips, so make sure you start with a beginner friendly one until you meet them and get a feel for the group and what the trip levels are.

#4

About your girls - six isn’t necessarily too young to paddle although much depends on the kid - and you. Tandems are good however you need to be in full control while also allowing the kid to contribute and be needed. Often, relatively short trips and time to play in the water can be good. Travelling with compatible group can also be fun. Emma is six in this picture on a club trip in Early April on the Little Muskegeon River in Michigan.

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#5

Hey guys! Thanks for the responses. I’ve never heard of the stackers or float bag, so will look into those.

I should specify that we’re in Chico, about 90min north of sac. However, going down to SAC area for lessons / overnight, etc. is not out of the question.

I’m beginning to think that the looksha may need to be traded for a tandem. I could totally see my girls (turning 6 in august) cruising around in a tandem. I originally had the (misguided?) idea that we would tow them in some inflatable sit-on-top or something…

thanks again for the feedback…

#6

Slow down just a bit and do some thinking before you jump on anything like a tandem. I’m not so sure you’re going to want the twins out there by themselves–yet.

About the Carlisle paddles: If you decide to go with them, first be sure you know what size is right for you and your wife. A general length guide is that standing flat footed, you should be able to curl your fingers over the paddle with it standing vertical in front of you. There are other things to consider also. Look around on the Internet to find some good deals on Carlisle paddles and maybe a dealer will match it, or you can order and have it sent from some dealers.
You will probably need something like a 220, so if you find one at a shop, don’t be bashful about making them an offer for it. I see the suggested price has gone up again on the Expedition, but I would offer about $139.

One thing you can do for yourself is to go to YouTube where you can find a ton of helpful videos with lots of instructions for just about everything that has to do with kayaking.

#7

@kiva822 said:
I should specify that we’re in Chico, about 90min north of sac. However, going down to SAC area for lessons / overnight, etc. is not out of the question.

You could add Headwaters Adventure Company in Redding to your list of places for lessons and info. The Redding shop is owned by parents of the guy who owns Headwaters in Lodi.

#8

Don’t bother with j-racks. Waste of money – I only use mine for hauling my soft shelled folding frame kayaks short distances. For hard shell boats, it’s easier and safer to haul them upside down directly on the racks. Anybody can load this way – I’m a 66 year old average sized 5’ 5" woman and have loaded 75 foot kayaks and canoes solo on an SUV-height vehicle countless times.

Loop two 1" nylon buckle straps around the crossbars (one pair per boat) and slide to the middle of the bar, draping the ends over the front and rear windhields so they are out of your way. Place the boat (s) behind the vehicle with bow pointed towards rear bumper. Lift the bow and drag the boat forward and up onto the rear rack, then walk back to the stern, lift that while shoving the boat forward until it’s on both racks, then reach up and flip it upside down. If you are too short to reach, stand on a folding stool (I keep one in the car). Toss the ends of each strap over the hull of the kayak and secure around the crossbar on the near side (above the car doors). Do the same with the second boat. Then use nylon rope or long straps to guy the stern and bow ends to the front and rear bumpers.

Hauling boats upside down has several advantages: you don’t have to worry about denting the hulls (oil-canning) due to heated plastic softening and warping from pressure from the bars. And you don’t get rain filling the boat if you hit a storm when traveling. Also, coming back from paddling, water that has accumulated from your outing drains out. And, with sit inside kayaks, the coaming ( the raised rim around the cockpit) usually fits between the rack crossbars, which makes for a more secure loading situation in the event any of the mounting straps fails or the boat shifts at high speeds.

The Lookshas are decent boats – I bought an older 17’ one for my brother a couple of years ago and he has enjoyed it. You did pay a bit too much for it though – that’s more a $300 boat. The Zoar Sport isn’t bad either and that is about what it’s worth. They are heavy though – all Neckys tend to be heavy.

If you are going to take the kids out, a canoe or a sit on top would be preferable. Tandem hardshell sit inside boats are heavy and can be a drag to paddle. Not necessary if you are mostly staying on rivers and lakes, Canoes are also better for fishing and camping.

I would echo Celia’s recommendation – get a flotation bag for the open end of the hull. Check with sporting goods stores that specialize in kayaks and SUP’s. I have found that many have old stock spray skirts and flotation bags kicking around they will sell you cheap (since sit inside kayaks have become less popular in recent years.) And get a couple of decent paddles, fiberglass or carbon shaft, since you will be able to use them with any boats you get in the future. Then use the two boats you’ve bought this summer and have fun with them,

For family outings on small lakes and shallow slow streams, pick up a couple of small cheap sit-on-top kayaks and paddles for the twins a at any big discount store – they are old enough to have fun splashing around in their own boats>

Also, besides canoes, I like to let people know about family options with folding and inflatable kayaks, some of which allow you to switch from solo to tandem by moving seats. Two such options are the Pakboat Saranac:

And the Sea Eagle Razorlite series:

https://www.seaeagle.com/RazorLite/473rl

#9

@kiva822 said:
we would tow them in some inflatable sit-on-top or something…

You should tow something before you think that is practical. Especially an inflatable “sea anchor” .

#10

@willowleaf said:
Don’t bother with j-racks. Waste of money – I only use mine for hauling my soft shelled folding frame kayaks short distances. For hard shell boats, it’s easier and safer to haul them upside down directly on the racks. Anybody can load this way – I’m a 66 year old average sized 5’ 5" woman and have loaded 75 foot kayaks and canoes solo on an SUV-height vehicle countless times.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that you are far from average if you can lift a “75 foot” kayak at all–let alone lift it onto the roof of your vehicle.

#11

@magooch
I am quite sure that willowleaf lifts up one end and then slides the rest up. I am a smidge shorter than her and that is what I do, albeit using a Roller Loader. The only people I have met who think that lifting the full weight of a long kayak above their heads seem to be guys in their 20’s. By the time they are in their 30’s they ones who thought that have blown out their backs.

I can lift a 60 lb kayak the short distance into the Hullivator cradles, though I usually take one end at a time, as can a number of 60 plus yr old women I know.
:slight_smile:

#12

Gotcha Magooch!

#13

I admit I am not “average” in my ability to handle heavy objects, but that is not due to brute strength, it’s due to knowing how to use leverage and balance to move things with the limited power and size I am stuck with. I was a construction electrician for many years and there were very few tasks or materials that I was not able to deal with in my daily toils just as well as my much larger male co-workers. It just takes knowing how to use what you have most efficiently. A factory bundle of 3/4" rigid steel conduit weighs 104 pounds, a load I regularly had to carry on one shoulder considerable distances on job sites (at the time I weighed 145 pounds). I learned that if you can get your center of gravity under the pivot point of a heavy but long load, you can carry much more than you could possible dead-lift with your arms and your back and shoulder muscles. As with kayaks, I would lift one end and then walk to the midpoint of the bundle, lean one shoulder into it and then lift to pivot the load up and level it.

Since my house is built into a steep downhill slope and I have no garage, every boat has to be carried out of my walk-out basement, then uphill around the side yard and up a flight of 6 concrete steps to the street to load on my car. Due to the steps and two tight turns, a cart is more a hindrance than help. So I have hauled boats of many sizes many steps. I often carried kayaks (up to 50 pounds) inverted with my head directly inside the cockpit (resting on the seat) and grasping/balancing the boat by the coaming. I find this much less strain on my back and shoulder than the more traditional hooking one shoulder inside the boat held sideways and it makes shoving the inverted boat onto the roof rack very easy (I almost always rack kayaks and canoes upside down).

I believe that learning how to balance loads effectively is what prevented me from ever having back or shoulder problems even during all my years of working in industrial construction. As Celia correctly describes, with heavy boats (over 55 pounds) I usually only am lifting one end to the back of the vehicle, then lifting the rear. Enough portion of the weight is on the ground, and then bearing on the rack, that I can handle the other end. As Archimedes said about the power of the fulcrum “Give me a lever and a place to stand, and I will move the Earth”.

One of the most valuable habits I took from my years of dance and yoga training when I was younger was to visualize a rod-like core of strength within my body that runs from the middle of the top of my skull straight down through my trunk to the bottom of my pelvis. The more vertical you can keep that rod relative to gravity and the more centered under any load, the more strength you will have.

#14

Take them out and use them for a couple hundred hours. If you never get that far, then taking the kids out while very young will never even enter the picture. I think you’re ready to have fun and skill up as your first step. Enjoy it!

#15

Took the boats out on a couple of flatwater mountain lakes. The Zoar is far more stable, of course, than the Looksha. Took a few minutes for my wife to get stable in the looksha, I also fiddled around in it for a while and it was fun, but I think it’s a bit too much boat / unstable for us beginners. We’re going to sell that one and pick up something family-friendly for the Mrs.

The Zoar was rock solid and we feel great about that purchase.

Thanks for all your help and I will continue to post back.

#16

Just a comment, the Looksha is not a particularly unstable boat. Especially for someone who is as small as your wife. I suggest that instead of ditching a boat to start, you find someone to work with the two of you to understand how these boats need to feel and work. Otherwise you could find yourself in a diminishing cycle of getting increasingly slow and long term unsatisfactory boats because of the initial break-in time for you as paddlers, that is something you just have to go thru.

#17

@Celia said:
Just a comment, the Looksha is not a particularly unstable boat. Especially for someone who is as small as your wife. I suggest that instead of ditching a boat to start, you find someone to work with the two of you to understand how these boats need to feel and work. Otherwise you could find yourself in a diminishing cycle of getting increasingly slow and long term unsatisfactory boats because of the initial break-in time for you as paddlers, that is something you just have to go thru.

ya, that’s a good point. There aren’t a lot of resources locally, but I’ll ask around. To be clear, After a while we were both cruising around it in just fine - just far more ‘tippy’ than the zoar. Also, it was much easier to control using the rudder, which I assume has to do with our skill level (?).

thanks for the input!

matt

#18

You’d be well served to take Celia’s sage advice. Here’s my story; sort of a Goldilocks and the three kayaks:

I had never been in a kayak before buying my first one. It was a short, wide Necky. Six weeks later I hated it. It was very stable, but a pig to paddle and the only thing I learned was frustration. Joined Pnet(com) and taking the advice given here by Celia and others, I found a used 12’ kayak with two sealed bulkheads. Nice boat, took my ACA Level 1 class with it and had fun paddling, although at 26" wide I didn’t have good contact in the cockpit. You start learning things when you start putting in the hours paddling – like a wide cockpit can make you feel less secure than one that fits well. A few months later I bought a 22.5" wide, slightly longer kayak with a much better fitting cockpit. That was three kayaks in a matter of months. Spending lots of hours paddling that kayak, taking the ACA L2 class, and gaining a little bit of competence gave me the confidence to start paddling on progressively larger inland lakes and finally on Lake Michigan. Two summers of happy experience on big water with the third kayak led me to the boat I started paddling in April - a longer, faster, 21" wide kayak in which I feel more secure than my first three. I’m 5’5" and weighed 113# this morning.

Had I started with the third kayak, I would have saved some money and learned faster. Celia’s advice is very good. Give what you have a chance, put in the hours, learn from the boats and enjoy the journey. Taking classes will increase your comfort zone.

#19

i will send my wife a link to this discussion. Much thanks!

#20

Hi Matt. More on the above for your wife to read. First, the Zoar is a bigger person’s boat and may be an inch wider than the Looksha, based on what I can tell from some old catalogs. Having a little trouble pinning down that Looksha but the Zoar comes in at 25 inches wide. That alone will make the Zoar will feel less of what newbies call tippy at first. Second, the Looksha has a bit more enunciated version of the traditional diamond chining used by Necky. That means two things. only one of which new paddlers tend to notice. The one you guys are noticing is that the boat easily slips over a bit side to side, something that is a very good thing in a boat in waves, as it moves between those chines. The part that you guys don’t appreciate right now is that the boat will sit very solidly on those lower chines. In sum, you do not have to try to stop the boat from going side to side. It is supposed to do that, and particularly for your wife that does not remotely indicate it is going to capsize. It is just going to move side to side between those chines, but stay in that range.,

Here is an example of how those chines work. I am about her weight and a smidge taller. In our old drop skeg Necky Elaho I can lay in the water sideways from the boat off of the second and third chine and the boat isn’t going any further over until I make it so. Including angling under the water at about 40 degrees, though though it is not a very useful position. It’s just a hoot that the boat will hold even on that deep a chine.

It is even possible that your wife is getting more of that action than you are because she is shorter, so is reaching more side to side to get the paddle into the water. But really, just sit in the middle and let it happen. Does not indicate a capsize.

New paddlers often confound stability in a boat with it being relatively motionless. And in a 36 inch wide very flat boat, on a totally flat pond, it may feel that way. But stability is not staying still, it is resisting capsize while sitting on a surface of water that has no interest in staying flat if it starts getting pushed around by wind, current or tide. The boats you have, particularly the Looksha, are designed to respond to that by heeling over in response to changes in the water surface or paddler weight shifts without capsizing. And they do it quite well.

Honestly, best thing you could do is to take those boats out to some spot near shore and purposely capsize them, as soon as possible, so you discover it is no big deal. Just make sure it isn’t so shallow you can hit your head. I assume there is not an issue of comfort with swimming, if there is you need to solve it to move on. Severe tension about the risk of getting wet will hamstring comfort in a boat. And everyone here who has worked on their skills has gotten wet, a lot, while learning.

As to the rudder - the way you preferably want to turn a kayak is to drop it onto an edge. That changes the profile similarly to heeling over a sailboat But that means more of the side to side stuff which is making both of you nervous right now. So the rudder is likely you more reliable turning mechanism at this point.