Another sea kayak builder GONE

It is a BINGO, but at the same time, it’s a symptom far downstream of the problem. Not sustainable to make small business patronage akin to charity. Small business can have competitive advantages–but the problem is they don’t have the resources to lobby those making the rules that favor the big companies. Whether it is why you really only have one search engine database, or two types of home computers to choose from, or any number of other examples, you cannot make a business plan that relies on consumer sacrifice. It’s poetic, but it is not enough. There is no scaling of it.

That is a criticism of the rulemakers, not the businesses.

I agree to an extent. However, customer service counts too. Not phone trees. Not chat bots. Not AI-enabled [im]personal assistants. But real service. Service that comes from knowledge, experience, and a genuine interest in customers that goes beyond their credit card numbers. Yes, that kind of service has a cost, but paying for it isn’t charity, it’s just a different - and in my view better - value proposition.
Certainly the deep pockets of huge companies and their fancy K Street lobbyists tilt the playing in their own favor, but we bear some responsibility too. Every time we use the time and investment (maintaining inventory costs money) of a local brick and mortar retailer to help make an online buying decision, we take $$ out of our community and send them to Bezos or Bentonville. Then, when the stores are gone and we look around and wonder what happened, we’ll find out that shipping wasn’t free after all.

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Not arguing, but then where does that line get drawn? 20% difference? 40%?
Whatever it is, it is up to each consumer to decide and the end-buyer is well downstream of the thousands of transactional decisions in the supply chain–materials, manufacturing, transport, operations. All those wholesale businesses are being squeezed too.

I despise Amazon, Walmart et al because most of the products are garbage in my opinion and they aren’t adding value. They are serving a remote point of sale market. Heck these days people are shopping for food at Dollar General (gasp), Walmart etc. I enjoy my CSA for most produce and meat, but I’m guessing I have more disposable income than someone who shops for groceries at DG or WalMart. It certainly won’t be my “fault” when the CSAs close shop and I am forced to shop at DG for food. Then I’ll leave for the mountains! It isn’t just kayak makers.

If we are saying people are obliged to not make a free market decision, but must make another instead as a duty of sorts, then it is worse than charity. My point is the fix is not to put additional burden on buyers when their discretionary funds are dwindling. A truly free market would fix it but that solution is not likely. Momentum is in the opposite direction.

I got my desired value from my two local boating shops–in fact got a kayak, paddles, and gear from each of them because each only carried certain brands. And they are both still struggling right now even though I did “my part”.

This (TPBW) was a company I had my eye on for possibly a custom lifetime boat in a few years. The niche is that you cannot get that kind of build on Amazon et al so he wasn’t even competing with them for my business. But now what are my realistic options for a forever boat, maybe Swift? They do ship nationwide directly, even though I have no local dealer and would have to travel to test paddle.

Are they an acceptable purchase for someone to be responsible–Or is that over the line?
Not exactly the same custom product as this fine company was making, but I digress.

I’m a former proprietor of a retail business that I closed in 2021 and the business environment is brutal–and becoming more brutal following Covid policies. Many could not survive with a 3-month pause on revenue. Some friends decided to just exit and sell their long-time family businesses or close them up (mine was not that example).

These were community staples and they could have stayed open but it would have been difficult. DId they have a responsibility to stay open? Of course not. No more than the consumer’s responsibility to “choose” them, in my opinion.

Whatever it is, I agree it sucks, I would do whatever more that I can, but I did all I could in my little corner of existence and it sounds like probably many here have. So what now?

I understand both sides to the issue here. I am also going to retire (mostly) from my one-man business that I have done part time (30 hour weeks) and full time (60 to 75 hour weeks) since 1984. In my business I had an idea that has caused the business to grow and to be back-logged, at times up to 8 years deep. What was my secret?

Compete!

I would go to the nationals and to various other evens as see what others doing my kind of work were charging. and see who had made money enough in some job where they were now receiving pensions and then did flintlock-making as a well paid hobby, as opposed to the very few that did it as a full time job and actually need to work. The ones that have a pensions charge what ever they think they can get and I’ll admit, some of the very best craftsmen in the field were part-time builders who drew pensions.
But the small minority did the work full time since they were young man and did little else.

I fall in-between, but far closer to the full time builder.

I did contract work making up SOP manuals for the Department of Defense as well as a few private sector employers here and there, but those jobs came a few times a year and sometimes a time or t every 3 years. The rest of my money I earned making flintlocks. But I always priced my flintlocks well below the average of what the large majority of men were pricing theirs a.t When I’d go to Friendship Indiana (the National shoot and headquarters for the national Muzzleloading Rifle Association) I’d get a good feel for what certain levels of workmanship were selling for.

So at a certain level of workmanship, where others were pricing their work at say $5000 I priced mine at $3500. At a level of work that they charged $9000 I’d charge $6800, and so on. In time my reputation was well known and my guns were in high demand, and yet I never allowed myself to get “all I could” because I understand international and historical lessons in studying economies.
When top priced production (to the point just below what most call gouging) is hit by a down swing in the economy from inside or outside the nation, they are the ones who most often loose customers. Not the fault of them or of their customers, but it’s just a fact of how economies work. I on the other hand never suffered any down swing at all. I did not earn as much per gun but I was able to ALWAYS have several guns backlogged, and so down swings never effected me at all. Now, today, I am simply working off the a back log and when it’s all done I may or may not take more work, but if I do I’ll take an order as and when I want to do that work.

Simple free market competition.

What makes a market truly free is not needing some form of cronyism to support it and no need to be a part of a group, association, union, or club. Just me and the work I do, priced at a level that is lower then others doing that work and getting 10 orders for my business for every one they got.

Some other artisans were so good that they could make 1 gun every 10 months and get as much for it as I got for 8 guns. That’s very true. But when the economy dips there is not another man or woman standing in line to give them another $18,000 to make another one.

Once someone makes a base line figure that they live on and especially if they live on “credit” (true meaning debt) they can’t earn less unless they are willing to downsize things in their personal lives. So at such times they either stop working all together at the job in question, or take on a side job.

I expect that $8000 kayaks are not in high demand in the USA now and considering that you can buy a VERY good top end kayak from Europe or the UK for 1/2 that amount, (even now with the US dollar in decline) it doesn’t seem realistic to continue making them, and it’s not right and it’s not wrong for anyone to decide what they will or won’t work for per hour. That’s why it’s called free market. It’s a study in math, not morals, but the math is how the truth is proven and when people cannot or simply will not pay a price point, the product either disappears or is lowered in price. If the amount it would need to lower is greater then the life-style of the person doing the lowering, the business collapses or re-organizes (sometimes in a form of it being sold to someone who can and will lower the price, or the quality, or both)

In the case where medical expenses are factored in ( a crony based and supported non-free industry) and the cost of such care is insanely high, the one that is squeezing the market to the least drop in their pricing finds it’s an expense they never banked on and in addition to that it makes them realize time is running out, so those 2 factors often cause a radical change in life style and prioritizing of time. Often in a good way. But such stories are more common then not.

I for one believe Joey is correct in his decision because all of us have a set amount of time to live and few of us know when the sand in out hourglass will be finished. So making the best of it when he can and when there is money enough to enjoy what time is left makes a lot of since to me. I truly wish him well. I can’t say I would “miss the kayaks” because I have never even seen one, and where I live it’s not likely I ever will until such time I start going to the coasts of the country or the Great Lakes to do trips, but even then the odds of seeing one are low, and the odds of paddling one are far lower. But I listened to his vid and I feel the same feelings. 6+ years ago I decided to stop taking on any new work. So I could say I came to the same point in my business where I need to close it up after the work on order is finished. He said he has a few more (I’d guess 3-4) plus one more for him and one for his wife. So his closing up the shop is going to be in a year or so. Mine was over 8 years deep when I stopped taking orders, so I am still working 60 hour weeks and I will be for the next 2 years or maybe close to 3. But it was the same feeling. To make a decision to stop the business, when you poured your heart into it for you whole life (longer for me then for him) I DO understand the mixed sorrow and gladness in the decision to close the doors for the final time. I wish him and his wife, family and all his friend well and I hope his remaining life is full of joy and happiness.

Aah… My earlier “dream boat” - Mariner Kayak Elan - from way back just popped back up again… This is only 50 miles away.

Matt Broze (co-owner creators of Mariner kayak with his brother Cam) used to pop in every so often in PNet way back. Those were the early days of my kayak surfing addiction. Had always wanted to order a Coaster or Elan for their reputation as rough water play sea kayaks, but could not afford (or justify to myself) then. Was sad to hear when they too decided to close the doors at Mariner. I have always kept and eye out for a rare appearance of Mariner kayaks in the classifieds since.

Not being able to get a Mariner, I later decided on a Sterling Kayak (when my financial position allowed). Just before putting the order in, I heard Sterling Donaldson was retiring. Thankfully, he sold his operations to several of his staff. So, I was still able to get my Sterling.

Do I need another “dreamboat”? As much as I would like to finally get an Elan, as is, I have a hard enough time to choose what to take to surf sessions among the 4 waveskis, Sterling Progression, Stratos 14s, Cobra ReVision, Perception FiveO. In other worlds, I probably already have too many surf crafts.

-sing

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Just a reminder that I’m a consumer and ordered TPB “maroskis” from TPB and CLC Boats. The pump bracket just passed by. Seats and plans from Guilimont. Epoxy and kits from CLC and glass from Duckworth…all small-ish US companies. Online is not all bad.

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This Mariner kayak is too big for me, but for a bigger, rough water afficianado, this could be a rare opportunity for your “dreamboat.” Rare for a Mariner kayak to show on the east coast classifieds:

I guess even as the numbers of boutique/specialty builders diminish, future generations of Paddlers, with interest and intention, will still have opportunity to paddle high performance kayaks. Our current generation of paddlers (myself included) are aging out and passing on. We are just custodians/stewards for the kayaks that we can not take with us (unless one wants a “Viking” send off…).

-sing

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There are myriad reasons why businesses don’t make it. But, blabbing about used boats for sale, boasting about how little you pay for used boats, bragging about how many used boats you bought, advising others to buy used boats isn’t really helpful to boat builders trying to sell new boats and struggling to stay in business.

I disagree as some one who has bought used and new kayaks and waveskis. Yes, builders can close for a number of reasons but the availability of preowned crafts of their line in the market is HIGHLY unlikely a contributing reason.

Personally, I owned 3 used Islander before being ready to commit myself (to the sport) and ordering 4 customed islander waveskis to my size and specifications, followed by a custom Infinity waveski.

No way would I have ordered a customed Sterling ProgressIon until I became more committed to longboat surfing with a preowned Delphin 150 and a Stratos 14s. Probably why I didn’t order a new Mariner early on (with my more limited economic means then).

Won’t even try to count how many preowned touring sea kayaks I owned before buying a new Impex Montauk.

Don’t even need to get Into my white water and fishing boats…

The used market is, in my opinion, crucial to introducing folks into the sport, hopefully good equipment, and then into buying a new craft of their “dreams.”

-sing

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Ah, yes. All are online retailers that spend an enormous amount of time and resources educating their customer base. Hosting Youtube channels that have online tutorials on the use and installation, providing technical support before and after the sale. Having worked with and for Guillemot/CLC. I know firsthand the investment in all of the supporting documentation that goes along with those items purchased online. All are very specialized in what they offer and online or phone order is the only way to obtain the items you want. The difference in the big online vendors and the ones quoted, you can pick up the phone or drop and email to get a response from either the maker of the item or the person who did all of the “creation” of that item. Nick just concluded a video series for building a Petrel Play. Hundreds and hundreds of hours spent in order to help drive sales on kits and educate builders. The amortization of that investment of time will take years to get back in terms of dollars.

I do stand by my assertion and even I fall into the category of being trained.

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Probably better to start new thread on used forever boats. It’d be less “triggering”…lol.

People live in houses with families, trucks people use more than a kayak in most cases. People that want to buy 5, 6, 7, 8,000 dollar kayaks are very limited.

GM doesn’t ship cars till they are paid for. I won’t ship kayaks until they are paid for.

CD got out now it’s buy direct when you order one I believe.

I was going to buy a Seaward Passat G3 they wanted paid for it but couldn’t ship it in 90 days. 90 days is past credit card claims. I got cold feet and cancelled the order. Puff 6 + months later they’re gone. Not saying they wouldn’t have done the right thing but I wasn’t going to risk it.

Business is rough I had a masonry company so you bid the job go work at it bill them for what you did to that point and get paid 30 days later if not longer.

I got beat out of about 15 grand in 40+ years. If a company didn’t have an excellent reputation I wouldn’t work for them. Easy to get hammered by rotten people. You’re honest but that doesn’t mean others are.

Pull the trigger

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One could build one of the CLC Petrel Play kits - or have someone with experience build it for them. Just a thought.

There is something special about a wood kayak.

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Hi Sing…long time!

I did find one “solution” to my inability to find a Mariner Coaster. There is a builder in Italy that offers one with hatches/options though it is expensive to ship/crate up. But still - if you are willing to take a chance - the cost of a new one will still be under $4000. Here is a link:

Coaster Pro (cscanoe.com)

I don’t know if this builder/manufacturer has “permission” to offer this design - but it could be an option. Just saying.

Pretty cool IF permission was secured from the Broze brothers. Brian Schultz/Cape Falcon SOF got permission with his F1 (Coaster inspired SOF). I think for a short while Seaward Kayaks produced some of the Mariner Designs.

-sing

Definitely an option.
Actually, I have had a custom boat built by Dan Caouette several years ago (a Shrike-R (Chris Crowhurst design)).
(interestingly enough, if you check Dan’s FB page now (Clear Stream Custom Water Craft | Milan NH), his picture is of a Petrel Play)

Or two

Nike had the saying, “Just do it”.

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Dan C has built multiple craft for me over the years - he ranks as one of the better builders in the USA IMHO. I contacted him some time back about building a CLC Petrel Play and he mentioned that it had a few tricky parts to the build. (as a first boat to build) I lack that ability - so getting a wood PP would have only happened if someone did it for me.

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Unsure about any permission regarding copyright on that score. The pictures sure make it look nice though and they can customize layups, finishes, keelstrips, etc. I think they were asking 1700 Euros to build a crate and ship it to SC. Of course, that doesn’t cover any cost coming through Customs.

While thing went from medical problems in video to financial problems here.