Call QCC
They will spend a lot of time helping you decide and I think they give good advice. At 180 and 5’10" I am glad I got the 700. I don’t know if the 600 has less room in the cockpit but if it does I wouldn’t have been happy in the 600 all day.
600 vs. 700
– Last Updated: Aug-21-07 8:39 PM EST –
I weigh in at 165 lbs., am 5'11", sell both boats, and have both boats at my disposal. Every time I paddle the 600, I say to myself, hey this is a nice boat, I should paddle it more. But the point is, I don't. I paddle the 700, which I love.
The 700 turns nearly as well as the 600, is faster, is sexier, what more can you say? If you expect to paddle the boat unloaded in windy conditions, the 600 may start to have an edge. In terms of height and weight, you are in the middle and can't really go wrong either way. (As gibsonra suggests above, the 700 will give you more knee and thigh room, which might be another factor to consider). If you see yourself as a strong paddler (or as becoming a strong paddler), go for the 700.
I have the 700, my wife the 600
I am 5’ 10", 195. Paddling the 600 empty is great fun in relatively flat water. But my preference is still for the 700. Empty it gets bounced around a bit but is not unstable. The 700 just seems to work better for me. I have not yet tried it fully loaded in rough conditions. But most boats behave better when fully loaded so I am not concerned. Secondary stability is a little different since the feeling of stability is continuous. Seat time cures that. The 600 is easier for me to put on edge but once you dial in the feeling of the 700 it edges just fine. What you really need to do is spend significant time in both boats. But that is usually impossible. So you have to bet. Put your money on the 700.
Rolling
– Last Updated: Aug-22-07 7:36 AM EST –
If learning to roll is important to you,
"Learning to roll...and well...is top of my to-do list."
I'd steer clear of the 600. The rear deck is high, high, high. You cannot lay back.
If you're open to other ideas... the Impex Outer Island is an exceptionally easy boat to roll and is pretty fast. The thing it doesn't do well is turn. It's pretty tracky. Wouldn't hurt to go demo one.
true
and the 700 is only 1/2" lower with the same size coaming. My old Express had about the same height on the aft deck as the 600 but the coaming was longer so there was more room to lean back. Maybe he can learn to roll without laying back?
People Do
– Last Updated: Aug-22-07 8:22 AM EST –
I'm pretty sure MarkinNC learned to roll in his 700.
I admit I'm biased. I really like lower volume and a low, low rear deck. I paddled an Outer Island once and loved everything but how tracky it was. It needed a rudder. "BLASPHEMY!" they screamed.
I'd hate to try to learn or teach a roll in a 600.
low aft decks
are good for various reasons but the height measurments in and of themselves don’t tell you how well you can lean back given the variation in distance between back bands and coaming on different boats. In other words one kayaks 10" high aft deck could be like another kayaks 9" aft deck if it has another couple inches room between coaming and backband.
I don’t think a beginning roller should chose one kayak over another because of the height of the aft deck and percieved preferences for layback rolls. I’ve seen a few “intermediate” paddlers practice their prefered layback roll in flat water with marginal hip rotation on kayaks with low back decks. More than one person would run out of sweep, stretched back and trying to get the last bit of fore/aft flexibility to get their torso on the deck. They would get up s l o w l y but it’s the kind of thing seems to trade poor hip snap for a poor position to resume paddling.
Body Type
I’m short torsoed and not really flexible. That makes the high rear deck especially uncomfortable for me. For me, any kind of layback was impossible in the 600. I would suspect that most people would be forced into a very ‘snap’ reliant roll in the 600. In short, you could do one type of roll in the 600 and two types of rolls in a lower decked boat.
700
Never paddled the 600, so take this with a grain of salt. Owned the 700 for several years. Wonderful boat. I doubt you’ll find a better build level: quality, quality, quality. At 6’1", 198 lbs., I did feel it had too much volume for my needs. For someone who camps, you can throw everything and the kitchen sink in those huge hatches and head off. (Every 700 owner I’ve talked to has noted the hatches leak a bit, mine included.) I always thought the 700 rolled quite easily, although the rear deck could be lower. Interestingly, the cockpit is fairly large, although the thigh braces and coaming are low, which necessitates a legs splayed position. Depending upon your body type, this may be an issue. This brought on sciatica for me, why, although I loved the boat, I could no longer paddle it. I’m amused by those who have leapt to conclusions that the plumb bow meant it is not a good rough water boat. I’ve been in some small craft advisory conditions with it more than once, and it’s more than competent. In fact, I’ve always looked at it from the point of view that its sheer speed gets me out of tricky spots faster than more ‘rough water capable’ Brit boats that wallow behind. (Also owned an Explorer so…) You’ll need to learn its limits on edge (or get the rudder and keep it down all the time-smile) as its soft, rounded hull doesn’t provide the same linear feedback as say, my Explorer. I liken it a bit to playing the trombone; after a while you just learn the positions of the slide.
Volume: Into the wind through chop, the bow will slap noticeably, however it loses little speed. It’s one of the best upwind boats I’ve ever paddled. It goes downwind well also; I’ve had the bow pearling almost past the front hatch surfing this same type of chop, and it just pops right back up again. The only sea kayak I’ve been in which surfs better is the Epic 18, which I own now. It may also be a tad faster, but we’re splitting hairs here. For racing, the Epic has a tighter catch and more open cockpit-great ergonomics for fast paddling. You may want to look at this one also, not the 18X. In its new incarnation it’s the Sport. It doesn’t have the level of build quality, but it’s lower volume, and does everything well.
Again, the attributes and shortcomings of the Q-ships have been batted about quite a bit on these boards. If you buy the 700, you might come to the conclusion that it’s a bit large, but you’re well within the size realm of being able to paddle it. Great boat, and it does go quickly.
how many ways to make a wheel round
Canoe bodies are soooo plain.
Seems to me QCC could take the basic hull and sell various nose pieces for it for those unaccustomed to plumb bows. Or maybe custom paint jobs that simulate genuine Baidarka faux ribs with optional bowsprit.
Cheap 2 cents
– Last Updated: Aug-22-07 3:32 PM EST –
I know of several folks that had 600s that went to 700s.. I don’t know of anybody that went the other way around... I however am STILL waiting for the QCC-900 with integrated rudder and 4 inch LONGER cockpit!!!
just curious
do you know of any that bought a 700 and went to an EFT or surfski?
Current position is a good compromise
The original with centered cockpit was optimized for heavy load with rudder (intended use for 700), and may be fastest loaded or light with rudder - but it was not be ideal for general use light - and not for skeg.
Second version was done in response to more day paddlers with light load (turned out most were not using it as intended) wanting it a bit less rudder optimized (read more dependent) but went too far - but version was pretty nice for the few skeg users like me. I have the farthest back version, but have since moved my seat forward to the current position. I hair livelier/faster and better balanced overall (plus way easier laybacks and better brace contact for someone my height). Better for general use and rolling stuff - but coaming position is still aft and so not optimal for speed/racing legs up stuff.
Current position is a compromise - and was shifted forward to give the racers back a bit of the original’s slight performance edge while still keeping the generalized qualities optimal for mixed use in different configurations.
Others can tell the story better/more accurately. I would not expect any further cockpit moves.
These are crazy easy to roll
Come on guys, I taught myself in a 700!
This really should not even be a consideration. Between the two you’re really splitting hairs, but 700’s rear deck is better for laybacks.
A layback is a STYLE of roll and is not a requirement of rolling. These will allow a partial layback (more if you lift your butt) which is sufficient to make the roll easier. I can do a full layback in mine - but it’s an older version with coaming 3" aft of current models - and I moved my seat 3" forward.
I know of some, who are probably…
… reading this, like hexsledge who got a 700, then an EFT, then many others (Jet, Vampire, Mystery, Rapier, etc…), and most recently a Van Dusen Mohican.
I also have had a couple skis since buying my 700 (but haven’t had time to really make use of them), and have built a 19’8" x 18 7/8" SOF that’s faster than the Q.
JackL is currently buying a WSBS Bullit (EFT derived) tandem.
What’s your point?
Well, mine does go rather well…
… with my Aleut paddle - and I’m not talking aesthetics.
point
what you get may not be what you stick with.
Progression
I’ve had the QCC, and now an Epic Endurance 18, an EFT, and a Huki S1-R due to touch down in a couple of weeks. Also had a Mark 1 and a Mako XT ski.
The Epic is my big water boat. It’s supremely stable, pretty fast, and surfs well. I feel confident in it in everything from open ocean to downriver events.
The EFT is a fine design. Runs with the Thunderbolts and big skis, but they start to go away at 7+, just doesn’t have the glide the bigger boys do, and this engine is not big enough to make up the difference. That said, it’s comfortable, promotes proper form, and just plain feels FAST in the water. A keeper.
The skis are pure, simple fun in my book. Have been gravitating more and more to these. They’re fast, surfing is more fun than a barrel full of monkeys, and if you fall off, so what? Climb back on; no rolling, pumping, or dumping. Little wonder that so many people have been going this route, especially with the new crop of faster AND more stable skis. Cannot wait for the Huki to arrive.
Majority of paddlers,
I know do progress on to other boats. It’s human nature for many to challenge themselves, we want better performing boats as our skills improve.
My start was in a plastic touring boat that went with the Ex after the divorce, maybe I was ok with it because I wanted a better toy, a composite Seda Glider, which then turned into a QCC700 (which is a great all around boat)and the next and so on. I’ve never paddled a 600, have raced against many with the 700 I had and it is definitely a slower boat. If the paddler is performance(speed) oriented he/she might skip that one addl. step and just start with the 700. Know paddlers who have gone from the 600 to the 700, none that have gone 700 to 600.
Even Envyabull, who has helped design boats with Winters and has for years on this board touted the virtues of the 700 has moved on to surfskis.
Another 2 cents.
HEX
Rolling
mctec! You edited/deleted your sentence about how important learning to roll was.
This post sure looks like an ad for QCC.
here… I’ll help you get it up to the top of the list.