Bad Canoe Demo

First let me thank everyone who gave me the great advice on solo canoes and demoing the canoes.



Not so serious story is followed by a couple of serious questions.



Thursday I drove 160 miles (one way) to go demo some solo canoes. I got one of my kayaking buddies to come along for the ride. TG Canoes in San Marcos let us try out a Vagabond, an Argosy, and a Wilderness (all Wenonahs) as well as a Bell Yellowstone Solo.



In about an hour of paddling I managed to hurt my left wrist, strain my right shoulder, and figure out that canoes are really different from kayaks. I did not swim, but I did come close. I also learned that althoug kneeling is more stable than sitting, what goes on while switching between sitting and kneeling can produced some interesting “stomach in your throat” moments.



My efforts with a single blade where pititful. I did figure out that there are approximately 15 different ways to hold a canoe paddle. These include various combinations of location of the T-grip (finger tip, finger base, palm), centering of the T (centered between ring and middle finger, centered on middle finger, offset to thumb), orientation of T (perpendicular to fingers, diagonal out, diagonal in), various thumb positions (in, up, around), lower hand orientation to blade, and finally lower hand distance from blade. My final conclusion is that there are actually 16 ways and I tried all 15 of the incorrect methods, but missed the correct one. I don’t even want to think about that “palm grip” thing.



I learned a few things about stability in canoes. The highest seat positions were set up by someone who was a big fan of America’s Funniest Home Videos. Canoes do have secondary stability, but when you get them to that point you slide sideways on the seat and bad things happen. “Keep you weight centered” does not mean kneel with your knees side by side in the center of the canoe. It seemed logical at the time, but repeated tries all had the same unnerving result. With my knees spread I did finally start to feel more stable.



By using a double blade I was finally able to gain enough control to actually test the canoes. The Vagabond was the most kayak like (especially with the seat in the lowest position). But the low freeboard and its slower turning response had me seeing it filled with water or wrapped around a rock on the first rapid I came upon. I know in experienced hands it would do great but my distance from “experienced” is measured in light years so I decided it was not for me. The Yellowstone Solo did remind me a little of an Eddyline Falcon 16 in that its least favorite position was level. However the Falcon 16 never tried to jump out from underneath me when I tried to turn it quickly. I am not sure exactly what was going on, but I swear it made some of the same moves I see the bulls making on the Professional Bull Riding show. It was definitely the most manuverable of all the canoes, but I decided it was a little beyond my skills. The Argosy was right in the middle. It did not feel like a kayak, but its responses were smooth and controlable. It was also the fastest of the canoes.



At this point you would think I had a winner, but there were still problems even with the Argosy (and solo canoes in general). I could not figure out how you are supposed to controllably heel a canoe either sitting or kneeling. There was no way to use the knee-lift/side-bend (J-lean) from my kayaking experience. When sitting I could shift weight to one butt-check, but when the canoe heeled I tended to slide on the seat and go well past what I intended. When kneeling I did not have the sliding problem, but moving weight to one knee seemed to be an all or nothing sort of thing. Worse than not knowing how to heel was not being able to react to right the canoe when it did heel. My instinctive kayak reaction of lifting with the downside knee and bending toward that side only made the problem worse. Maybe if I put in some of that bondage apparatus I saw in the whitewater outfitting websites the canoe would handle more like my kayak. The Argosy had a particular comfort problem. When kneeling I experienced very bad ankle pain if I sat back down on the tilted seat. If I lifted myself up a little off the seat the pain went away. I had no problem kneeling and resting on the slightly higher seat in the Yellowstone solo. The outfitter suggested I could pad up the Argosy seat, but I was concerned that would negate the increased stability I was getting from kneeling. The final problem was the lack of any foot bracing. I could never find a really comfortable place to keep my feet when sitting. The outfitter showed me a brace I could add, but it seemed a little complicated and I was not sure how it would feel.



Finally back at the shop we got to look at the one new Argosy they had in stock. There were just enough outstanding issues that I wanted to take a couple of days to sort things out before making the purchase. As soon as I said I wanted to think about it, I got a big surprise. My kayaking buddy (now ex-buddy) chimed in that he would buy the Argosy right then and there. I had to remove one set of saddles from my racks and take the other set out of alignment, but we did manage to get it on my car. So the final result was that I drove 320+ miles to pick up a canoe for an ex-friend and in the process made sure that I can not buy a solo canoe at least for the next 2-3 months (if they even get one by then). It was not the best canoe demo I could have imagined.





One a more serious note I do have a couple of questions:



This is for solo canoes like the Argosy without any knee or thigh straps.


  1. Is there a proper technique for heeling a canoe both when sitting and when kneeling?


  2. If the canoe heels due to waves or current what is the technique for getting it quickly back level (again both when sitting and when kneeling)?




  3. Is there some outfitting (besides padding up the seat) to help relieve the pain in my ankle while kneeling? Note: Extra height paddling under my knee increased the pain. Having someone lift up on my shin just slightly decreased the pain.



    Mark

What about
the Wilderness? . Did you get to paddle it? I think the increased depth would give you a little more room under the seat and put your rear end a little higher when kneeling. This, I think, would take some of the pressure off of your ankles. If not then the higher seating position would leave room for ankle padding.

Joe

test paddle
Test paddles do not work for me. It takes me months to love the canoes I love. Trust me, you will get used to the balance thing, and you will love sitting higher, and seeing better.

Prescription
Buy a used solo. Paddle it 2 to 3 years on a variety of water. Test paddle your friends’ boats in comfortable and supportive settings. Then demo new boats. By then it will all mean something, by feel.



3.Ankle blocks/pads.

To quote Charlie Walbridge:
“C-1s, like Marines, build men.”



And yes, it takes a bit longer to acquire the skill set.



Jim

As they says…

– Last Updated: Feb-25-08 8:48 AM EST –

"Iffin' it waar easy, it'd be called kayakin'". WhoooooooHaaaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaa! ;>)

Ah' dun't know who "they" be but.....

FE

It would
also be a good idea to paddle a tandem with an experienced paddler. This might help you to learn basic strokes and give you a good feel for canoeing. It takes time and practice.

Joe

Just what I was thinkin’ :wink:

1.2.3. On your Knees
I don’t sit much so from a kneeling perspective.


  1. “Is there a proper technique for heeling a canoe both when sitting and when kneeling?”



    With your butt on the seat and your knees, wide as you can get them, planted in the bilges, you are looking for three solid points of contact. Keeping your torso centered use your hips to lean the hull. Yup it’s the kneeling version of the J lean. With a little practice it should work fine until the water gets to bouncy to keep your knees down.

    You might want to practice in warm benign conditions where a capsize will be fun. Once you get used to it fine control should be pretty easy.


  2. “If the canoe heels due to waves or current what is the technique for getting it quickly back level (again both when sitting and when kneeling)?”



    See above. In addition I like to have my paddle planted in the water doing either a stroke, a brace or some combination of those. If the water is bouncy enough that you are getting thrown around in the boat you might want to consider saddles and thighstraps and even a dedicated whitewater hull.




  3. “Is there some outfitting (besides padding up the seat) to help relieve the pain in my ankle while kneeling? Note: Extra height paddling under my knee increased the pain. Having someone lift up on my shin just slightly decreased the pain.”



    Ankle pads like these might be what you want.

    http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=2049%2E5&deptid=1215

Wilderness not tested
I was looking for primarily a day-tripper for smaller rivers in Southwest Texas. The Wilderness was longer and heavier than I thought I wanted so I did not paddle it. My ex-buddy did try it and liked it. However he said he would only want it if he was doing extended trips (over 1 week) since the Argosy was more manueverable and had more than enough room for week trip. He has camped for years out of kayaks and has a trimmed down camping load (no coolers of beer).



Mark

Learning to solo
Please, go get some solo paddling lessons from a real (preferably ACA or BCU certified) instructor. If the shop has that many solos, they certainly can either give you lessons or point you toward some. You will pay for these lessons, just as you will pay if you DON’T take them! Really, paddling a solo canoe has little to do with soloing a kayak. And, while there is a place for them, double-paddling is not the answer to your quest; you must learn to how to use a canoe paddle. Learning to paddle a solo right the first time is invaluable. One other option is the new solo canoeing video by Darren Bush from Quietwater Films, but I’d get that after some real lessons. Really.

heeling
while sitting is tough, but can be done with practice. Heeling while kneeling is much easier and can be done by moving your knees…move the offside one to the center and (eventually) even right next to the other one. With both knees in the chine on the side you want to turn to (and butt still in center of seat) you can easily heel to the rail if desired. It’s OK to turn the top half of your body, too. Yea, it takes practice to turn back and forth in a canoe, but if you can’t J lean, try it. There is a much steeper learning curve in a solo canoe than in a kayak so don’t get discouraged. When you finally acheive control and can begin playing with the hull as FreeStylers do, it’s a really satisfying feeling. Also consider taking lessons from a certified instructor or just a learned friend. Enjoy!!!

Transitions
Hi Mark :



Welcome to the highest aspiration in paddling, solo canoe. The leap from kayaking to solo canoe is quantum. It is a mistake to compare the two as they are apples and oranges.



I’ve paddle the San Marcos twice, each time in a WW solo canoe. Both times the water was high enough to produce some class I rapids. Sometimes the S. M. can be tamer, but still, I would not choose any of the hulls mentioned for water with significant current for the first time out. Those boats are better learned on quieter water. For one thing they are all a bit long for water with current, among others.



In answer to your questions:

  1. Yes there are techniques for heeling while sitting ( usually the J lean) and kneeling (several).
  2. If water is causing your canoe to tip that is not heeling. Heeling is induced not imposed. Unexpected tipping is usually handled by a brace. A low brace when tipping to the onside and a high brace if to the offside.
  3. Outfitting for kneeling is a large topic but can be done to accommodate your particular style. Some of this will improve with time as your quads, knees, and ankles get in better shape.



    My advice is to find a good instructor, not just a friend or your cousin but a known experienced instructor. Learn how to solo canoe, then work up to water with current. Solo canoe is the hardest type of paddling to learn but hugely rewarding when mastered.



    Go to laloucanoe.com for details on a first class solo canoe clinic in Louisiana, with world class instructors, in early April.



    Pagayeur

takes time in the saddle
My favorite canoe is the one that took me 15 minutes to get in the first time, and still flips me out if I even think about a brain fart.

Are you saying
That the Argosy and Yellowstone Solo are not really suitable for class I rapids? What solo canoes would you recommend for Class I and II rapids that I would find on San Marcos or Guadalupe river. I will still be spending the majority of my time in the kayak and I do not plan on trying to acquire the skill set to move up to Class III.



Mark

Heeling while sitting
I would add Wenonah’s footbrace and a backband. It’s the best thing you can do for control from a seated position (I have Rheumatoid Arthritis and can’t kneel). Short of thigh braces, it’s as close as you’ll get to a kayak-like “feel”.



As suggested above, get hooked up with some good lessons. A single blade in the hands of a good teacher is a beautiful thing. For the ultimate, find an instructor that does freestyle…


Those boats are just fine for class
1 & 2 rapids. Well, maybe not for the many so-called class 2 rapids on the Nantahala, but fine for most class 2 rivers in Georgia.



I was out yesterday paddling my 10 year favorite ww cruiser, a 15’ long, 28" wide, more round than flat, Mad River Synergy. My favorite paddling side is left, and with this narrow boat, I seldom bother heeling for the left side. But for right-sided paddling, heeling feels good for some reason. (I can tell you that it does not gain any speed in this particular boat.)



I mostly paddle this boat with a medium height kneel, and there actually is not room to move a knee outward to heel the boat. Can’t explain how, but I get the heel I need (vital when ferrying across very strong currents) by subtle weight shift.



I do occasionally shift back on the triple saddle and paddle this boat in a sitting position. The boat certainly feels more unstable when sitting, even with my knees braced outward under the gunwales. I don’t bother trying to heel the boat when sitting. I also have a Mad River Guide, and I don’t try to heel that boat when sitting. Most of the hulls I own are slower when paddled in a heeled position, and don’t track better when heeled either.



For the boats you have tried, I would recommend a minicell pedestal, possibly set up for both kneeling and sitting, as one could do with the Mohawk saddles. (I have one in my MR Guide. If you get a boat and want to see examples of outfitting, shoot me an email… I already have pictures somewhere in my files.)



Even in just class 2 whitewater, when you get into strong eddy turns, etc., it is the high brace even more than the kneeling position that keeps you in the saddle.

Class 1 ?
Nope, not at all. I’m saying that at your current skill level, one would expect exactly the type of problems described in your original post. An experienced solo canoeist might take these boats in current and have fun, but you are still trying to resolve how to hold a single bladed paddle and what outfitting to use (no offense intended). Maybe learning to walk before running is a good idea. After all, paddling is a recreation and if you want to have fun stay within your current level of boats and water, otherwise you will be in for a “bad demo day” as your words reveal.



All issues discussed here can be resolved and a good clinic to do so can be found at laloucanoe.com. Come on down to a controlled, safe environment and hear all these things discussed and resolved by nationally known instructors, several of who post here.



Pagayeur

Class 1 ?
Nope, not at all. I’m saying that at your current skill level, one would expect exactly the type of problems described in your original post. An experienced solo canoeist might take these boats in current and have fun, but you are still trying to resolve how to hold a single bladed paddle and what outfitting to use (no offense intended). Maybe learning to walk before running is a good idea. After all, paddling is a recreation and if you want to have fun stay within your current level of boats and water, otherwise you will be in for a “bad demo day” as your words reveal.



All issues discussed here can be resolved and a good clinic to do so can be found at laloucanoe.com. Come on down to a controlled, safe environment and hear all these things discussed and resolved by nationally known instructors, several of who post here.



Pagayeur

Yeah, I almost never have demo’d a
boat before purchase, and two or three years after I have learned to wring everything out of it, THEN I finally see the critical deficiencies. On two of my decked c-1s, it took quite a while to realize the cockpits were too far forward for my weight and height.