4* as 3* in conditions
The existing 4* is often said to be 3* in moderate condtions - e.g. 3ft seas. In 3* specifics of technique are important. In 4* what works and is safe and efficient is sometimes tantamount.
Providing the conditions exist, it seems most 4* assessments are conducted over the course of a day while journeying. (I believe that is what is recommended in the syllabus) I have heard of assessors wanting to get aspirants somewhat tired out to see how they perform in closer to real situations.
BTW, the Rough Water Symposium looks like it should be great. I wish it hadn’t gotten scheduled on the weekend before the Downeast Symposium. Downeast was great last year. We had already committed to this year’s by the time the Rough Water Symposium was announced. Cannot get away two long weekends in a row in early September. I hope that Tom talks to Mel and Mark next year and these two events can be scheduled in a manner that would allow for more of us to attend both 
tide and time
wait for no man, jim.
when we do this all again next year, it will once again be tide/current driven and it will again be well into the season so that everyone has had time to get some water under them, feel comfy and then go have fun and give themself a bit of a challenge if they like.
while there will be a bcu 4* and 5* training, the whole event is really just about paddling - challenging yourself, having fun, learning and meeting some new people.
RWS & DE
i agree. i was all set to go to the downeast symposium, but when the opportunity came up for a 5 star training i jumped at the chance. i looked into attending both symposiums, as I am quite keen to do my L3 training, but the economics of coming out from the west coast, paying for 2 events + food + travel + lodging + boat rentals + 15 days of missed work just made it impossible at the )somewhat) last minute.
even if they are still close together next year, at least knowing about it in advance will certainly allow more of us to plan accordingly!
can’t wait to get out there!
agreed
we’ll announce the date for next years event far, far in advance. announing as late as we did this year was an inconvenience and challenge for everyone, no doubt about it.
wait for no man…
Rick, I am so glad Tom is back and doing the sort of things he does best. The Rough Water Symposium should be wonderful. If at all possible we will probably attend next year’s.
Hey, if Celia and I were retired we would probably attend both Rough Water and Downeast this year. Unfortunately being away to paddle Mid-Coast Maine for most of July kind of precludes my being away from my responsibilities too much in September…
Great thread!
Excellent posts, all. I will be trying for my one-star TEAM ZER0 non-award this year…
But I still want to grow up and be like Salty when I have a couple more years of experience on the water.
Scott
Yes, thinking is required
I agree that thinking is required. I suspect that the BCU would agree also.
Note that questioning a requirement (which could be quite reasonable to do) is different than refusing to meet the requirement.
The point of the BCU assessment is to provide a standardized way of qualifying paddling skills. Part of the point of the standardization is to avoid schisms where everybody does the assessment differently. This allows, for example, an employer on the US west coast to have some idea what a 4 star rating given in England means without a lot of detail. I think there is some value to this.
I suppose you could nitpick (endlessly) every requirement but it’s not clear (to me) that there would be much value in doing so.
It would certainly be incorrect to assume that any rating “complete” in anyway.
What “should” means (in context)
In the BCU syllabus, "should" had better be interpreted as "they had better see it". "Should" isn't intended to mean "optional".
http://www.bcu.org.uk/bcu/sitePDFs/1-4%20star%20closed%20kayak.pdf
Page 10 "CANDIDATE’S KAYAK AND EQUIPMENT"
"All equipment should be both suitable and serviceable... Where equipment is found wanting then the candidate should not be assessed."
Clearly, interpreting "should" as "if you want it to be" in the preceding paragraph is incorrect. (It would be unreasonable to pass assessment with unsuitable or broken equipment.)
"The following items of equipment should be presented for inspection:"
"2. Personal clothing. Personal clothing should be appropriate to the expected conditions, and should include windproof and waterproof clothing."
"6. Packed lunch. A packed lunch and equipment for providing a hot drink (may be a vacuum flask) should be carried."
"Must" appears to indicate requirements for just showing up (ie, you won't be assessed without them). "Should" indicates requirements for which failure to meet them won't keep you from being evaluated on other points of the assessment.
So do tthey actually pass 4* assessments
in flat water when they can’t find 4* conditions? Seems like a rip off. If the conditions did not show, I’d take a rain check and just practice in whatever conditions were there. I did not take the assessments to simply pass. I want the skills and composure to explore more remote open coasts without the backup of having to have a 5* leading me around.
Celia, I think you’ll like whatever newer version of the 4* shows up next year. IMHO it’s about time the BCU started to include some leadership skills below the 5* level of assessment or training. Being certified to follow a 5* like a puppy dog is not much to reach for. What I do love about my 5* friends is how confident and skilled they are in taking me and others out and really pushing the limits.
syllabus prohibits
testing in water that’s flat and requires that “…the test must be taken at sea, under moderate conditions (wind or sea state 2-4) ideally during a day trip. allowance will be made by the assessor if conditions are rough, bur the kayak skill must be performed in a competent manner. for reasons of safety three kayaks will participate. the test will not be taken in a flat calm.”
wind or sea state 2-4 translates from beufort to a low end of 4-6 knots wind speed with sea’s under a foot to 11-15 knots in one meter seas…so not exactly a crucible but certainly a nice enough day.
It’s an international award…
and as such, it’s not always closed to interpretation of waters that only you paddle. whereas a frozen water bottle is more sensible in south Florida, someday you may be in Scotland or Morocco. Demonstrating a little equipment savvy is probably a good thing, however, I’d suggest looking at it in the broader context of what an assessor expects and move on over the smaller issues, so that if you want to consider more advanced training you may do so. If not, go out and paddle to your own tune. That’s not a bad way to go, either.
Dogmaticus
My wife says I’m a ‘9-star’.
Good enough for me. Agree with salty that the sea should be one's examinor. If you're good, you know you're good. No one else cares what pieces of paper you have hanging on your wall, provided you're safe on the water. And, BTW, if you're physically wasted (exhausted) and cannot perform, just how safe are you?
First person who officially proclaims me a 'failure' because I won't bring tea kayaking with me, or fail to extend my left pinkie when ruddering is going to get knocked on his butt. Then again, don't believe I would ever waste my money in such pursuits to begin with. Sorry, but this is all just plain silly.
failing something does not make you
a failure. And I don’t think anyone is told they are a failure if they don’t pass an assessment. At least not in the ACA, BCU, or any school I ever attended. Maybe they do things differently in your neck of the woods.
The problem with the statement “If you’re good, you know you’re good.”… well there are lots of problems. To start with you have to define ‘good’, this usually means creating a standard of ‘good’. Then you have to objectively compare yourself to that standard. Very few people are completely objective when it comes rating themselves. That has mostly to do with perception. How we perceive ourselves can be very different from how others perceive us. Our perception of ‘good’ might be different from other peoples perception of ‘good’. On top of that, we can only compare ourselves based on what we know (either knowledge, skills, or experience). And perception is for most purposes reality.
I might perceive myself as a great paddler while I sit on a completely flat pond in my Pungo. Having only been in a flat pond in my Pungo, and not having ever read or heard of any place else or any other type of kayak then I am a great paddler. Suddenly, I find myself in a tippy surf ski. My knowledge changes and I realize my perception of my abilities was based on incomplete information. This new information causes me to alter my perception. Then I find myself in the surf zone. Again, new knowledge which alters my perception and gives me a better understanding of my abilities in a much more broad context.
So if someone says to me ‘I am good because I know I am good’ it makes me skeptical. If someone says ‘I am good because I have the BCU 5*’ it makes me think other people perceive them as good, which I believe more.
I am involved with the ACA and BCU. Why? Not for the levels or stars. I am involved so I can learn about kayaking and learn new skills. I take the assessments not to pass or fail but to find out if my perception of my abilities matches up with others perceptions. I do this not so other people will think I am ‘good’. I do this so I will have a better understanding of ‘good’. Feedback is important to me. And yes, feedback from the ocean is the most immediate and dramatic kind. Feedback from the ocean can also come in the form serious injury or death. Sometimes having someone show me a different, possibly better, way of doing things isn’t so bad when compared to the alternatives.
BTW, I go to symposiums feeling like a good paddler and leave feeling like a not-so-good paddler. My abilities when I leave a symposium are exactly what they were when I arrived at the symposium, often they are even better. What changes is my perception and understanding of kayaking. Which means my perception and understanding of my skills has changed.
lol…
If someone actually said “I am good because I have the BCU 5*”, I’d think them to be a pompous ass and I’d probably not want to associate let alone paddle with that person. Fortunately the better paddlers that I’ve known and met tend to be pretty humble.
Thank you kayakjourneys!
The BCU (and ACA) training and assessment scheme(s) provide context and perspective.
I'm afraid I wasn't born knowing all I need to know and with all the skills I need to have to paddle safely in the array of conditions and situations I'd like to enjoy and survive.
I am humbled and inspired by every decent training in which I participate.
It is also true that I have yet to meet an arrogant L4 or L5 coach or a 5* paddler who was not humble.
"If you’re good, you know you’re good"
Perhaps…However I do have to say that the assessment seem to be more than just a self-assurance of your skill. They are an assessment and therefore are also a learning experience.
I learned a lot paddling with Nigel that day. I also got some feedback about some of my strokes that has helped me to improve.
So the assessment was more than just a process of getting a peice of paper to say that you are a descent paddler, it actually did help me to become a better paddler.
Not to mention, I think that the whole process just helps you to focus on things a little more than you otherwise might.
I knew for seveal months that I wanted to take this assessment so I spent a lot of time practicing all the different strokes and trying to make sure that my form was as perfect as I could. If we know that our form will be closely evaluated we concentrate on it a lot more.
It’s easy to become sloppy due to complacency. Practicing for the assessment was a means to help me to practice and to help me to perfect strokes that I had previously seen as being of little value which I now see otherwise…such as the side slip. I saw this as just a fancy stroke that I did not think I needed to know. Practicing for the assessment forced me to learn this stroke and to perfect it. I now realize how useful this stroke is.
So…for me at least the assessment process helped me to improve which is what I am most concerned about.
Another thing that I like about the assessment for me personally…I am in the Army and move a lot. Moving to a new place means linking up with new paddling groups. I love to paddle in really rough conditions. If you are new to a paddling club you may not be “invited” to go on the more challenging paddles before you have had the opportunity to prove yourself which you may not get the chance to do right away since it seems that most people tend to over-estimate their abilities when asked their experience level and if they can handle the conditions, etc. I hate being put in that position. It’s even worse if you are a younger paddler such as myself…I am fairly young compared to most of the more skilled sea kayakers I know. The assumption is often that you must not be experienced and therefore not good.
I found this happend a lot when I was in CA. I belonged to a local club, but the more challenging paddles were done by a small group by invitation only. I did not really get to prove my skills to that group until just before I had to move. I think the assumption was that I was young and probably not experienced and that if asked I would over-estimate my abilities and therefore may be a liability to take on some of the more challenging trips outside of the SF Bay, rock gardening, etc. Too bad, as I missed out on a lot of awesome paddles I really would have liked to go on.
So…having passed a certain level assessment may be helpful to me in the future in being allowed to join the more challenging paddles in a new area where I then will have the chance to prove my skills on the water so that there will be no doubt.
Matt
Matt
I guess with BCU in the subject line. .
It brings out the love. This thread wants to turn into a debate between joiners and agnostics.
Matt, If you ever plan that month long journey, let me know. I’d be up for it.
Practical experience is a compliment for class and symposium experience. Some seem to argue as if expeditions and classes are mutually exclusive. It is possible to do both and both will make you a better peddler.
Most of the best paddlers that I’ve paddled with are BCU. In this case, I mean “best” to say that they control their boats with an ease that I aspire to, and they take on some of the most challenging waters in the world.
I’d like to set some things strait. This particular assessment was given in 4 star+ conditions in Bogue Inlet, NC. The seas were a solid 3 foot with some 4 footers and the occasional bigger wave. Nigel encouraged us to pick our route to stay within our abilities. It was a fun day. This was not an attempt at giving a “moderate conditions” assessment in flat water. Both Matt and I succeeded at this portion of the assessment.
THE BCU 4 star syllabus specifically states: “Where a candidate does not hold this test (3-star) a cross section of the requirements of the 1-3 star tests should be incorporated at the examiner’s discretion.” It was during this portion of the assessment that I missed my braces. Ironically, I would not have needed to demonstrate a flat water brace if everyone on the assessment held a 3 star award.
Again, I stress that I have no problem with the assessor’s decision. I should have been able to demonstrate the basic skill. I’m still committed to passing my 4 star and continuing for 5 star and eventually L-2 and L-3 coaching awards.
Don’t worry Salty. As many trips and expeditions as I can fit in are part of my plans too. Others may choose a different path, but for me, the combination of training and practical experiences will make me a better peddler than either alone. Of this I have no doubt.
Michael
Conditions and the new 4 star
I didn't mean to say that the 4 star assessments happen in the face of no conditions, tho' I see it can read that way. What I meant was that, if things are on the easier side of allowable conditions, assessors can/have taken people back thru some of the 3 star skills. I know at least one person who encountered this - in fact their high brace during the review of 3 star stuff was why they didn't pass - and it sounds like similar happened to Michael above.
Or perhaps our friend was in a group that included folks w/o their 3 star (our friend does have it). Whatever - many paddlers, myself included, admit that if they had to pass the 3 star again they'd have to spend some time working on the forms first.
As to the new 4 star, I have long agreed philosophically that any 4 star paddler should have some leadership skills because the reality is that they will end up helping out if things start going south. But I am also 55 years old and will be a year further along in whatever can go wrong with the physical plant by the time I expect to be ready to take the assessment. As well as kinda hating paperwork. Perhaps if I were younger and had fewer years of arguing with insurance companies and phone companies about calls I never made... I will do it the newer way but honestly I could happily go without any more overhead.
the statement was an example
and I could have phrased is a little better. Using bowler1’s example situation below the statement may make more sense. I show up to a club meeting, they describe a challenging trip, and I ask if I can go along. They ask me if I can handle the situation. I say ‘I can handle it’. If they ask further how I know I can handle it (and they should ask) there are two responses. First response is along the lines of - I am good enough for that trip because I know I am good. Second, I am good enough for that trip because I have the BCU 4* ( or ACA Level 4) and the trip you described, with the expected conditions, falls within operating requirements for that assessment.
So someone saying ‘I have a 4* it means I am good’ can be pompous and a turn off. Someone saying ‘I am good because I know I am good’ can be pompous, ignorant, and a turn off.
Lighten up guys
Jeez, you’d think people were challenging your religion here! Look, the program is cool and it clearly provides for folk like you. It’s “a way”, not the definitive answer for all. Enjoy it…it’s just kayaking!
Agree about the higher level BCU types being more mellow. I surf with one of them on occassion and even he pokes fun at the whole gig.
Truth is noone cares what you do, so do whatever makes you happy.