Best northern state for specific paddling and living criteria

Paddlers' Place
#1

Long-time plan to move to Maine foiled by the housing market there—just not enough selection of houses at the right price, right location, size, etc. Below are my criteria. What state or region of a state comes closest to these criteria?

  1. Climate: not too hot and humid in the summer; winter not intolerably long and cold. 20 degrees is OK. Minus 20 isn’t. I don’t really like temperatures over 75.

  2. A lot of peaceful lakes to choose from without traveling too far from home. Remote feeling without being 50 or 100 miles from civilization. Ample possibilities for paddle camping.

  3. Good housing market with good selection and prices.

  4. Pleasant towns with nearby hospital, groceries, etc.

Here’s a house for sale in Minnesota that makes me think I’m on the wrong path with searching for a house in New Hampshire and Maine: 5709 Timber Ridge Dr NE, Bemidji, MN 56601: $330,000 | realtor.com®

That house in the Northeast would be at least twice the price. Hard to tear yourself away from the region where you’ve lived your whole life, but these are extraordinary times that call for thinking outside the box. Plan B would have been to build a house in Maine, but the logistics of doing that while living in another state seem insurmountable.

#2

Greenville, South Carolina

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#3

Lots of paddling options in the border counties between Wisconsin and Michigan’s Upper Peninsula (see below). The proximity to Lake Superior moderates winter minimums (Bemidji is way colder) but it also increases snowfall. Kayaking and canoeing seasons can be short - 5 to 6 mos or less - so you’ll want to take up a winter sport or, better yet, visit Greenville (as suggested by @string) to preserve sanity. The northern part of lower Michigan along the Lake Michigan and Huron shorelines could be worth a look too.
Prices are up, across the region, but not nose-bleed high as in New England and the West Coast. Minneapolis and Chicago are 4-5 hrs away, so that helps.

Vilas Lakes
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#4

I’m assuming you’re just referencing the house for it’s price and not for a possible location with your stated restrictions.
I lived in southern MN (Rochester) for about 10 years.
-20deg was not an uncommon experience.
Very common between 0 and -20.
Open water between mid April an December.

On the other hand, you certainly don’t want to be down here (north FL - Jax)
I paddle pre-dawn to avoid the heat, typical 75-80 in the summer.
(this mornings paddle was low 40’s, 10mph breeze)

#5

Housing prices are Linked to modern quality of life.

Something to think about if you want to be 50 miles from civilization, is that living that far from town is a major pain and does not make a lot of sense for older paddlers. I live 8 miles from a small Grocery Store that mostly carries unhealthy food and 15 miles from a reasonable town with hardware stores, pharmacy, restaurants that are not open on Sunday. Make sure you have a hybrid vehicle that gets good mileage because you will be driving a lot and you need to plan your trips into town carefully, and friends who can take you into town when you can’t drive. Healthcare in the area is a problem. You can not find MDs who are taking patients and you end up seeing very young and inexperienced Physicians Assistants and NPs with low levels of academic training for everything. The MDs who are here are not very good. I have had three friends or relatives die from “complications following surgery” in the year since I moved back. Simple things you may be used to like internet access can be a problem, especially since everything is done on line - health insurance, government related activities, interacting with pharmacies and doctors, social security, medicare. If the internet connection shuts down for several days you can be in trouble. Also President Musk is likely to raise the cost of StarLink and limit competition when he gains control of government regulations.

Many people have seen low prices in states like Idaho, Nevada and Wyoming, and transplants move in from the coasts with lots of money from real estate deals etc and begin driving those prices up. Maybe best if you stay where you are.

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#6

A lot of truth in SeaDart’s statement here;
Many people have seen low prices in states like Idaho, Nevada and Wyoming, and transplants move in from the coasts with lots of money from real estate deals etc and begin driving those prices up.
They HAVE seen, Past tense. There are not many “user friendly” places left in the Rocky Mountain states or in Nevada for prices I’d call good deals.
32 years ago I bough my place on 40 acres here in Wyoming for $74,000. It’s valued now around $450,000. Not that I’d sell it ---- because it would take that much or more to get a similar place anywhere out here that I’d consider moving to.

And “nice” is a word that means no challenging conditions or harsh conditions in most folks minds. If you don’t like wind and you think extended periods of -30F are bad, you’d probably not like it here. (Like MOST people, which is why Wyoming is the least populated state in the USA.)

BUT with such conditions comes the blessing of less crowding and less government involvement/harassment as a rule. Not that we don’t have any of it. We do. But far less then anywhere I have ever lived before which is why I moved here 30 years ago.

And Wyoming is not the only such place. Many states have their out-lying areas with hard access at times, some very hot, some very cold, some choked with insects, and many with extended drives at times to get to any place you can go for large stores, restaurants, theaters, malls and so on. But “nice” and “inexpensive” don’t usually sit very close to one another.
Heck the largest concentration of Billionaires on earth is here in Wyoming. Jackson! 40-45 years ago a lot of millionaires moved there, by the hundreds, and drove the tax structure and pricing so far up that most regular people had to move away, and now in the last 20 years Billionaires have done the same thing to the many hundreds of millionaires there. There is something to be said for an area where most millionaires can’t afford to live. But Jackson Wyoming now has the most Billionaires per-capita of any place on earth. So despite it’s being in a “nice” area, it’s unlikely most of us could live there. So we have the 2 extremes here. Some of the state is a bit like stepping back into the early rural 1900s and Jackson is super wealthy.

But going to a place where the housing is low in cost will usually mean it’s less convenient or less safe, or less temperate, or less something. Which is the reason the housing doesn’t cost large amounts of money in such places. Stated simply, most folks don’t like it there and would not live there if they could move.

What you do for a living is vital. If you have your money, or if you earn your money in a way that your location doesn’t matter, going someplace with low cost of living is best because you will not need to find a well paying job. When I moved here I needed 4 things for my business. I make old fashioned guns, like those made 180 to 300 years ago. So I needed #1 A place I can shoot. #2 Electricity. #3 A working phone. #4 A system where I can receive and ship things from, at least most of the time. (UPS, Fed-Ex and US Postal Service) I have all those here, most of the time. #1 All the time. #2 nearly all the time, my longest power outage was about 3 days. #3 Phone Outages have beset me only about 7 times in the last 30 years, from a day or so and a few times, for up to 5 weeks. And #4 I have been cut off from shipping and receiving only 4 times in all the years I have lived here and the longest times was as bit over 2 months. Most times its maybe 4 days.
Many would think such limitations are too sever to tolerate. And that’s why when I moved here I could buy a small 12 year old home and 40 acres for $74,000. “Improvements” by the county and by others new home builders not too far away (within 2 miles) have made access a lot easier and so now I have turned down offers as high as $600,000 when the bubble was at it’s highest. But I need not go find a job. I am the job. I have had a backlog on my work with custom orders as long as 8 years for several decades. I say all this simply to illustrate that where someone moves to is based on several factors.
How much does it cost to buy?
How much does it cost to live there?
How much money or potential for earning money can you bring with you, or earn there?
How much “convenance” do you require?
How much inconvenience or danger will you tolerate?

The hard but simple truth is that for the most part, nothing but God’s salvation is free.

Everything else costs everything else.

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#7

if you don’t like the cold, forget about Maine, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota.
I like Oregon.

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#8

I think the Pacific coast fits your climate description the best, and the Puget sound and San Juan Islands offer lots of places to explore by kayak and year-round scenic views. It’s a well developed area, so services are close, but true wilderness isn’t. Also, housing prices are high, so for the same housing expenditure you’d have to live smaller than other places.

To avoid the summer heat & humidity in New England you have to be at altitude. Even Millinocket, ME routinely sees >90F. Northern New England also tends to hold a snow pack and have spring mud followed by black flies. So paddling in late spring/early summer can be dicey, the middle of the summer is humid, but late summer and fall is sublime. You can find real estate bargains in northern New England if you look off the beaten path, but that may take you too far from a hospital.

The upper midwest gets hot in the summer, and very cold and windy in the winter. Like Maine, the paddling season is short but it’s beautiful at its peak. Housing prices are much lower, but so are winter temperatures.

Housing prices are also more reasonable in the South, where there are many reservoirs, but it has the opposite problem of the upper midwest in that the summers are brutal but the winters are mild. I’m not sure which is worse to you.

I think you’re going to have to compromise and decide which of your criteria are most important. Could you live in a small duplex in a touristy area if it was in a beautiful place with convenient services and the water was close by? Or would you prefer a quiet home in the woods away from all the people but close enough for ambulance service?

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#9

Unlike balmy Rochester, Bemidji actually gets cold.

#10

I said I DON’T want to live 50 miles from civilization. I mean, I want a good choice of lakes nearby (20 to 45 minutes) so that paddling is a part of daily life, not a long trip once a week, with services nearby also (major grocery store, hospital, etc.).

An example of this would be the towns inland from Ellsworth, Maine.

#11

I once thought that too and planned to move to Oregon. I would never do that now due to wildfires. On the other hand, New England was drastically affected by smoke from Quebec last year.

Maybe there is no place left now that meets my climate criteria.

#12

Given my paddling druthers I’d live in Barrie Ontario. Not a state but Barrie (population 150k) is kind of at the outer edge of Toronto’s megalopolis and close to all kinds of paddling - white water, lakes, and Georgian Bay. Does get cold though - wiki says record is minus 38, balmy compared to Bemidji’s -minus 46. If you move to the PNW they have sunshine during July and August. :slight_smile:

#13

A mod of my original answer. Upstate SC meets several of your criteria ,not that we need more people moving here. However, paddlers tend to appreciate beautiful places.
We don’t have a huge number of lakes but we have some large ones that aren’t too heavily used. We are at the edge of the foothillsand the weather is typically very moderate. July and August can be hot and humid but we can paddle comfortably into December. Ice is something a machine makes.
Housing prices have increased in the last few years but are still nothing like the North.
Jobs are available for most skill levels , BMW being a major driver.
We have one famous ww river within an hour, The Chatooga. We are a 3 hour drive from the ocean.

#14

After reading about Greenville, SC (up to 95 days a year over 90 degrees, no lake in the vicinity on the map), I changed my post title to “Best northern state.” My 1st climate criterion rules out any southern state. Also, I prefer natural, smaller lakes rather than huge manmade reservoirs.

#15

No idea about the house costs, but here are a few nice ‘touristy’ towns.

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#16

Wildfires are definitely a concern on the dry side of the Cascades, but not as much on the wet side where I was thinking. But the wet side has persistent clouds and rain Nov-Mar.

There’s really no perfect place, is there. Where are you now?

This year, New England was humid and wet through July, and Vermont suffered major flooding for the second year in a row. In the middle of the summer I was fighting off moss trying to take over my lawn and growing on the shady side of my roof, and there were parts of my patio and deck that hadn’t dried all year and were developing a slime. But then weather patterns changed and it went dry from August all the way through the middle of November. I live in SE NH where it was exceptionally dry. Between here and Boston we had wildfires from late Oct through mid Nov. On two days I could see and smell the smoke all day in the office. And when I did leaf cleanup, I stirred up dust clouds because the ground was so dry.

The winters aren’t too cold here because I’m 25 miles from the ocean. We see <0F morning temps for a few days each winter, but never -20F. Snow is variable depending on the tracks of the nor’easters. If you live in the foothills of the mountains at a little higher elevation, -20F is to be expected and you can get some brutal winds. If that’s not a deal breaker, there are reasonably priced properties in northern New England away from the lakes and ponds, mostly used as camps for hunting, four wheeling, and snowmobiling.

For milder winters near the coast, look in the downeast corner of Maine. Once you go past Bangor, Ellsworth, and Bar Harbor, civilization becomes sparser and there’s fewer tourists and vacation homes, so real estate is cheaper. There are hospitals in Machias and Calais, and plenty of freshwater and saltwater paddling opportunities. The locals aren’t super welcoming until they get to know you.

#17

Another option that’s not crazy expensive is in northern New York around the outskirts of Adirondack park. The towns along Rt 11 from approximately Gouverneur up to Malone all offer easy access to the park, and they are north of the Lake Ontario snow bands, and have hospitals and services, and home prices are affordable. It’s flat land full of farms and wind turbines, so homes are basic and it’s not very scenic, but in addition to the Adirondacks there is river paddling as well, especially around Potsdam. Montreal is about 2 hours away. This area does get cold and windy in the winter though, not as bad as northern MN, but colder than downeast Maine.

I grew up in western NY and have been around Lake Ontario, Erie, and Michigan in winter. The Great Lakes lakes definitely have a moderating effect on temperatures, especially downwind, so you don’t see the extreme cold, but instead you get lake effect snow and bone chilling winter humidity. It’s a double-edged sword.

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#18

Yes, watching this thread, ADK comes to mind for me. Plenty of low or non developed lakes and ponds to paddle, including many that are protected and not ringed by houses every ten feet. Meets the feeling remote, camping opportunities criteria. If we ever move off the boat and back to land Saranac Lake would be on my short list. Except for the cold maybe- they build a castle out of ice every winter after all.

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#19

Southwest PA has a number of advantages. We tend to have mild, even snowless, winters since we are right on the northern cusp of the Jet Stream and the warm moist air that bulges up from the Gulf of Mexico tend to block the cold dry air that comes off the Canadian Shield from reaching this far south. If you look at the current band of massive “lake effect” snow you can see that it doesn’t reach down to the lower half of PA, and that is usually the case. We have had some hot spells but summers tend to be moderate. My last house didn’t have central air but due to the shade of all the surrounding trees and large covered porches front and rear, it stayed comfortable and I rarely had to use the window AC units. Some summers I didn’t even install them. It is not unusual to have it be 70 F on Christmas Day here or a week of Spring-like weather in late February, followed by a couple of days of snow in early May (which will melt off within a day or two). It used to sometimes be quite humid here but that has eased in recent years. Winters are usually just grey and chilly half the time (20s and 30s) and sunny and mild (40s and 50s) just as often. There was never enough snow last winter or the winter before to have to shovel that walks. But the ridges to the east are high enough to get more snow and a one hour drive to them can get you to XC and downhill skiing.

Pittsburgh (where I live) is a diverse world class city in terms of culture and resources, with 7 colleges and universities and two large competing health care systems. But it doesn’t feel like a dense urban area due to the terrain. Great public parks and rail trails for hiking and biking. Always something going on here – I say if you anyone is bored in Pittsburgh, it’s their own fault. It’s an attractive place, with over 55% tree cover even in the central city due to the steep hilly terrain and river valleys. Look at aerial photos of the city to get the feel for that. It’s rather unique, though parts of it would remind you of the Greater Albany area. We even have cable cars and faux paddlewheel river boats.

Housing, though it has grown more costly in the past few years due to a strong job market, is still quite affordable compared to similar metro areas. I bought my current house last year, a cute 3 bedroom 2 bath brick bungalow with central air, 3 garage spaces (one under the house and a detached 2 car + workshop building to store all my boats and paddling gear) on a 2/3 acre treed double lot in a pleasant suburb for $260K. House next door (a bit smaller on a 1/3 acre lot) just sold last week for $220K. I sold my two previous properties in this same neighborhood last year also for $220k each. Where I live is 3 minutes to one of the main commuter highways (I can drive to events downtown in 15 minutes on a weekend) and 10 minutes from Interstate 76. Also access to public transportation. Some examples of typical homes for sale here linked below.

Lots of paddling opportunities here. PA is second only to Alaska in miles of rivers and streams. Plenty of lakes – 2 hour drive to Lake Erie if you want bigger water, but only 45 minutes from where I live to Lake Arthur to the northwest, with 44 miles of shoreline and some great launch areas. Not as many lakes as Minnesota (due to the rolling terrain here) but there are still plenty and it is not as swampy and buggy here as the upper Midwest. A couple of hours drive south gets you to West Virginia which has some great National Forest camping. Same to the north with rivers like Tionesta Creek and the West Branch of the Susquehanna for extended overnight canoe and kayak camping.

I like to day paddle the 4 major rivers that bracket the city, all part of the greater Mississippi drainage. I can launch within 30 minutes onto any of the 4 big rivers and, since they are dam-controlled, flow in the pools is usually moderate enough that it is easy to paddle upstream and back or vice versa. Despite being “urban” rivers, they flow through deeply cut canyons so a lot of the banks are tree-lined and there are some wooded islands in the streams.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4782-Doyle-Rd-Pittsburgh-PA-15227/11392283_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4040-Greensburg-Pike-Pittsburgh-PA-15221/11455446_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/15-Wilkins-Rd-Pittsburgh-PA-15221/11418755_zpid/

#20

This may be the best idea so far, and I have noticed the better real estate market there. My hesitations are (1) the area has become very built up since I knew it in the pre-Olympics era and (2) it’s far from the ocean. Maine is unbeatable when it comes to having everything—lakes, mountains, wilderness, ocean, a great small city, medical facilities. It has everything except houses! I’m interested in knowing more about which parts of the Adirondacks don’t receive lake-effect snow.