what issues?
I’ve found the bow/ stern lines the easiest to use.
When I think of kayaking, I think of the ocean, which means driving 200 mi, usually over 70 mph and the Santa Anas always seem to be blowing 
I don’t have saddles at the moment.
If I go to the lake that’s ten minutes away, I don’t fuss as much with securing the yaks.
it is like wearing a PFD
I was riding with a friend who swore by bow and stern tie downs. The j-saddles he was using failed in a strong crosswind and the kayak blew off sideways. The bow and stern tied downs held the kayak along the side of the car and right into the grill of an oncoming car. I guess that is more of a rant against J-saddles than tie-downs.
The point is everything fails. I prefer non-mechanical parts because there are less points of failure.
As for the whitewater kayaks being blown off…
Most ww folks I know who lost their kayaks run a rope over the nose and tail of the kayak (not through the grab loop). The kayak gets blown off because the nose slides back under the rope. Tie downs would solve that problem, so would running the ropes under the grab loops.
Just a suggestion …
As opinions on this topic vary widely, might I suggest that you filter the responses by only considering the opinions of those who have actually had the “pleasure” of losing their load?
My take:
I’ve lost two loads in my lifetime …
I’ve never had a racheting tiedown loosen – ever. Use one for each rack.
If more than 1/4th of your boat length extends beyond the rack, bow and stern tiedowns are mandatory.
And by the way –
If you’re traveling great distances and/or at high speed, throw on a third “safety” racheting tiedown.
assuming people learn from their mistake
but their are plenty of folks who don’t use tie downs and who have never lost a kayak off the roof.
So do we take advice from people who have lost kayaks off the roof, or from people who have managed to keep their kayaks where they want them?
it take about a minute a line, so why…
– Last Updated: Jul-08-07 2:16 PM EST –
...not do it?
A: for the reasons noted above, that it does not help secure the kayak as much as one would think (unless dual lines tied to each side of vehicle, as one astute poster mentioned), and that it is potentially dangerous in and of itself.
rebrumley, as to your friend's story, he needs to a) learn how to use ratchet straps so they don't fail, and b) at highways speeds use two ratchet straps up front *three total, tow front, one rear of boat).
tiedowns
highways–yes
local backroads-nope
Never leave without them
We have an aftermarket “heavy duty” rack installed by the “pro” installer that sells these wonderful heavy duty racks at a dealership. Well guess what … he used a few sheet metal screws !!! So, if your rack isn’t held down thru the metal with bolts secured on the inside - there is very little strength and I for one wouldn’t trust my boats (weight plus wind resistance) to a few flimsy sheet metal screws. Do you know specifically how your racks are attached? If not - they are not safe - for you or for the others driving on the road near you. I use them each and every time I go anywhere - short or long distance.
Forgot to mention
We often put 4- 16-17 ft kayaks on our roof racks on j cradles and a stacker in the middle and secure them also with belly straps. In addition we use 2 bow lines and 2 stern lines for the 4 boats. Each set of two are joined thru the toggles together. This works well but would prefer a better attachment point on the boats. It takes us awhile to get going doing all this preparation, but this way, we know we are good to go!
Always use them.
– Last Updated: Jul-08-07 4:23 PM EST –
Just look at your own list. 3 reasons to use bow/stern tie downs and one not.
Consider the force a long boat places on the load bars that are only 2 or 3 feet apart. The tie downs relieve the rack of having to resist all of the lifting force your boat generates. They greatly reduce the chance of rack failure, minimize the impact if a failure does occur and are your last line of defense in a collision. The tie downs protect you, your boat and other people on the road. Why is there a debate? Yes, they take a little extra time to use; so do PFDs and seat belts.
I can't fathom CoolDoctor's assertion that bow/stern tie-downs are a danger to ones self. In the even of a rope snapping, it would drift in the wind. Big deal.
Straps generally make lousy bow/stern tie downs because they buzz and vibrate no matter how much you twist them or tighten. Simple ropes cut through the wind better and are easy to stow. If you don't want to take the time to tie a couple half-hitch knots, Google "Rope Ratchet" and buy four of them.
If your ropes are scuffing paint where they make contact, thread each one through a length of PVC or rubber hose of an appropriate length and diameter to protect wherever there is body contact. If you lack good tie down spots on your vehicle (as is my case in the front), you can make or buy simple web strap loops you can bolt to the body. Most cars are full of small holes in the the frame and bodywork under the hood where a hook can be attached or loop bolted in place.
In my case, I have a pair of loops under the hood that I just pull up out of the hood/fender seam whenever I need them.
You might drive for decades without bow/stern tie-downs and never have a problem. Or it might happen in the first 10 miles. Why risk it?
Phreon
Thank You.
Phreon,well said. The second paragraph of my first post on the subject,says it all.
Happy Paddling billinpa
In 35 years of carrying all kinds of
boats on top of vehicles, including 14 foot jon boats, I’ve never had a rope used as a bow/stern line snap. there just isn’t that much tension on them and, if there is, whoever tied them that tight is a goofus with a big oil can in his vehicle roof.
If you use three locking cam ratchet…
– Last Updated: Jul-08-07 2:04 PM EST –
..straps, you simpy don't need bow and stern lines. At all. It's as simple as that.
http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=232
They tow RV trailers with these straps. They hold up standing 2000 lb Harleys on trailers with these straps. Wider versions are used by flatbed semi-truck drivers who log thousands of miles transporting everything from windmills to factory-sized generators.
The arguments to not use them and instead use rope and a bow/stern line --"I know how to tie a rope, so why not just tie one", "I might get silly and overtighten the ratchet and hurt my own kayak", "I don't know how to properly use a ratchet strap so it might come off", "What if the entire rack on the top of my vehicle comes off"-- are patently ridiculous. There will be no side wind twist when a boat is properly secured with ratchet straps; you would turn the entire vehicle by the boat before the strap itself would fail.
The are the fastest and most foolproof means to secure any load on any rack or trailer. Highly recommended.
Its not about good straps
Cooldoc, If you read the previous posts about flying boats you will realise that its generally not the straps that fails, it’s the attachment points of the rack or crossbars that fail. In which case any number of high quality straps would not help (unless you run them through the windows). With the use of tie-downs you minimize the risk of having your rack come loose. And if it does come loose, you minimize the damage (of boats and cars) and potential injuries of others.
It does add one minute of work on your behalf though.
uhhh, Doc…
Nobody’s stating that ratchet straps are inherently weak. The real possible problems have been stated above.
What your single-minded assurances forget is that you could very well use those heavy-duty-semi-truck-ratchet-binders and still have your load lost IF you have a rack failure.
Do I use bow and stern lines every time I load a boat? - nope. Do I feel better when I do? - yup. Do I think it’s irresponsible of one to insist they’re totally useless to a new boater seeking solid info? - yup again…
On a lighter note…
Skip the tiedowns altogether. Just do like I see a lot of clueless people who buy mattresses. Take three people with, roll down the windows and each one grab on to the gunwale. I saw two guys hauling a foosball table like that one day.
Lots of factors
Car type, boat type, tie type, strap type, rack type, wind speed, distance, yada yada
Maybe there is not one answer to this question.
Fix the racks, rack failure is negligent
Travelling without proper racks, checked often for safety, is an issue in itself. Having a rack completely fail and fly off the vehicle (as opposed to simply loosening) is hugely unlikely, and having a bow line will likely cause a major accident unto itself with flailing rack and boat dragging alongside the car. A poster above mentions inferior screws in his rack; fix the rack! The above posters who mention kayaks flipping up and flying around are talking strap or rope failure.
Definitely, not only get the right straps for the job, but also the appropriate rack checked often for safety. We are not talking about strapping 300 lbs of luggage on a roof rack here… a proper and working rack system fora boat is not rocket science.
Fix what rack?
I referred to the small screws holding the rack onto the vehicle. That was in reference to factory racks. If youve ever looked at how many racks are held to the roof, you would not trust them. Most are held to the roof with just a few smallish sheetmetal screws screwed through thin roof sheetmetal. Ive seen factory roof racks seperate from the roof on a couple of occations You get alot of weight up there, bouncing or blowing around and it doesnt take much to pull a few sheetmetal screws out.
Aftermarket companies use factory rack bars as the basis of their mounting systems. I believe this is generally the weak point of the system.
Thats why I use bow/stern tiedowns, to take the strain off the factory rack. I use a gutter mount rack most of the time which I have much more confidence in. I dont always use bow/stern tiedowns when using the gutter mount. I have much less concern about my straps breaking or my Thule rack coming apart than I do my factory roof rack pulling off the roof.
Hood Loops, Bow Lines, Ratchets
For folks who are concerned with either not having a place to tie the bowline or the bowline scratching/scuffing the hood paint, here’s an option:
http://www.oakorchardcanoe.com/rackaccessories.php (scroll down to almost the bottom of this page to see the product and pics)
Oak Orchard makes these Hood Loop things…$10 a pair. They bolt inside the engine compartment and peek through the gap between the hood and the fenders once the hood is closed. Once tension is put on them from a bowline overhead, there is almost no contact between the straps and the hood or any painted surface. When not in use they just flip/fold down under the hood. If you don’t want to spend the $10 you can use some extra strapping and do-it-yourself, just make sure the straps aren’t so long as to interfere with fan blades, belts, other moving parts under the hood.
I have ratcheting bow line straps, the same ones that come with a Thule Glide and Set saddle kit. When I use mine, I pull them as tight as I think they should go and put a knot under the ratchet to keep any slack from forming. If it’s an extended trip, I use a couple of zip ties to tie up any extra line and keep it from flapping in the wind.
plenty of tiedowns holding this load
but would you trust it.http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/bnrhuffman/Home%20Depot%20car/HDcar.jpg
