Wow! : )
I guess there are a lot of opinions out there, aren’t there? Here’s a bulk “thank you” to everyone who took the time to reply. I’ve read them all twice, and will probably do so again before all is said and done.
Once I get everything I need so that I’m happy with the configuration, I’ll use the lines everytime. My shortest drive to the water is about 10 miles, and 50 mph is involved regardless of where/how I go. All that really matters is that I don’t want to chance hurting anyone. Boats and cars can be replaced.
To answer a couple of the questions asked…
The kayak is a 14 footer.
And no, I don’t know how to tie knots, but a good friend of mine who used to own a marina will remedy that.
The issue I have with the bow lines is that if I choose to use the Thule 855 Quick Draw lines and webbing loops they provided, the rachets hang too low and are in my line of sight while driving. That bothers me. I’d prefer them to be higher, so I’d need to get smaller webbing loops or something of the sort. If I just used lines and learned how tie them off properly, that problem would go away I guess.
I was a little concerned about having the lines run up under my bumper, but as someone mentioned here, a friend of mine recommended using rubber hose to protect it. Interestingly, when I hooked them up again to take the pictures, I noticed there were “channels” in the bumper that seemed strategically placed for the rope to rest in. I assume that’s by design, but I’m not sure how much it helps.
The hood loops would solve any concerns there, so I’ll consider them also. They seem like a really good idea.
Here are some photos for what they’re worth:
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb124/hokiejane/?action=view¤t=IMG_4065.jpg
Thanks again for all the help!
Jane
what sucks about that
What sucks about your setup is the bow lines rubbing on the hood. It wont cause big problems but it will mar the finish over time.
Im not trying to talk you out of using bow lines, I just letting you know what you can expect. Dont be concerned about the buckles or lines obstructing your view, you get used to that real quick.
Like it.
Bogus arguments
Better to fix the racks, clearly.
Posted by: cooldoctor1 on Jul-08-07 2:46 PM (EST)
Traveling without proper racks, checked often for safety, is an issue in itself. Having a rack completely fail and fly off the vehicle (as opposed to simply loosening) is hugely unlikely, and having a bow line will likely cause a major accident unto itself with flailing rack and boat dragging alongside the car. A poster above mentions inferior screws in his rack; fix the rack! The above posters who mention kayaks flipping up and flying around are talking strap or rope failure.
There are two forces that must be controlled to safely car-top a boat. 1) The static weight of the boat and 2) dynamic lift (and turbulence). The rack's primary purpose is to bear weight; lift and torsion are secondary.
You'll notice that the landing pads on most modern racks are rather large (good load bearing ability) but the clips, usually because of design constraints, have a rather small contact patch. Sure, you don't need tie downs for skis, small hard carriers, etc., but these have a relatively small wind load and do not present the (lever) moment a 17 foot kayak will. This is why spending 5 minutes on Thule or Yakima's web-sites reveal explicit warnings *to always use stern and bow tie downs when carrying boats*. The ACA and most boat manufacturers concur as well.
If you use bow/stern tie downs properly, no single or possibly double failure will leave you with a boat dragging next to the car. You should always use SIX attachment points (left corner, bow, right corner times two [front and rear]). You could lose BOTH rack straps or have the entire rack system come apart and still have the boat on the top of the car.
Definitely, not only get the right straps for the job, but also the appropriate rack checked often for safety. We are not talking about strapping 300 lbs of luggage on a roof rack here... a proper and working rack system for a boat is not rocket science.
You can argue that the roof rack should be solid enough to deal with all forces, but the real world isn't perfect and it's much easier to use a couple of ropes on the ends of my boat than have steel I-beams welded to to top of my car.
You might have a case if you're car-topping a one or two short playboats, but most people use J-cradles or some kind of stacker that puts the boats on their side, which presents a pretty large side wind load. Even in this case, a couple of rope ratchets make using bow/stern lines so easy it's almost criminal not to
The short of all this is that there's no conceivable instance where applying correct bow/stern tie downs is more likely to cause problems than not. Racks fail, straps break and single points of failure are a BAD THING (TM). The only argument not to use them is one of sheer laziness.
Phreon
sheet metal screws
Aftermarket racks like ours are put on by sheet metal screws because it is the easy and quick way to do it cost effectively and thats the way the supposed pros do it as it is not “their” vehicle. We found out afterwards or else we would have insisted it done the right way. A poster says then “fix it”. Not an easy fix - in my case the van would have to be ripped apart from above - removing all the cosmetic material and all the attachments etc in the ceiling panels and see it you can use nuts/bolts and washers to go thru the metal without disturbing a/c vents etc. so…not so easy. That is why it is wise to use the bow and stern lines also. I wonder how many people know how those racks are attached !! By the way, we are in the process out outfitting a trailer to use and love the ideas from I believe Redmond that has posted his wonderful creations.
Agreed
("There are two forces that must be controlled to safely car-top a boat. 1) The static weight of the boat and 2) dynamic lift (and turbulence). The rack's primary purpose is to bear weight; lift and torsion are secondary.
You'll notice that the landing pads on most modern racks are rather large (good load bearing ability) but the clips, usually because of design constraints, have a rather small contact patch.")
I agree with this statement, which is why the only rack system I trust without bow/stern ties is a good gutter mount system.
It’s a Subaru
I use the same hole under the car, one on each side by the lights. I use a long line and pass thru from one side to the other and back up to the straps on the kayak or canoe. It is a pain in the butt to do this since you have to feel for the holes or lay down and look under. There are a lot of horse an buggies by me so I have since stopped feeling around under the Baja. I now use the two straps you can buy with a grommet on one end and bolt it under the hood on the side. It is sturdy and easier on the eyes. And best of all no more horsecrap on my fingers. Hope this helps.
sounds like an Amish issue
Dang Amish. I have to clean up after my dog but if I had a horse, I could just leave it be.
Some examples
Here are photos of my hood loops, what a rope ratchet looks like and one of the frame holes I hook onto under the rear of my car.
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/?action=view¤t=hpim1115.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/?action=view¤t=hpim1116.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/?action=view¤t=hpim1117.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/?action=view¤t=hpim1119.jpg
It's worth noting that I used existing under hood holes for my loops and there are plastic washers between the metal washers and the body. I sewed the loops together for strength, melted the bolt hole in place with a glowing hot bolt (which yields a stronger melted together hole) and filled it in with leftover grommets I had from an old project.
Also note that the rope ratchets are not simple pullies. They grip the rope solid and have a one way (releasable) ratchet action. Hook, pull, zip -- you're done.
Phreon
I like your setup
I do have a couple of questions - the plastic washer - is this to help the metal washer from fraying the strap or heat reasons or to raise it up a little for the strap to keep away from the body of the vehicle? Can heat cause any problems with damaging the strap. Also we bent with a vise grip the hook on our ratchets (thule and yakima’s) a little inward for security but wondered if you are comparing the 2 or use both - one at the bow and one at the stern?
About the same loops here…
on my RAV4.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2525357500050436027QsongZ
on the rear I use the trailer hitch as a tie point.
Jane, I hauled boats thousands of miles with a Subie like yours ,using the tow hooks under all 4 corners. My wifes 05 Subie now only has 2 up front ,and 1 rear tow hook. Never had any paint damage either using soft, high strength nylop rope.Just be sure to wash the grit off the hood & bumper with wet towel before using the tiedowns.I am glad to hear you you will be using tiedowns.Hopefully after this discussion,some long time non users will finally get the picture. It’s the drag & uplift that is more the problem then the load factor for the racks.The tie downs ease their burden,and add a measure of safety for your boats,and others following you on the highway.Thank You, Jane for listening to reason.
Happy Paddling billinpa
Ahmen Phreon!
Thanks again for helping convince anyone reading this.
Happy Paddling billinpa
Setup…
Honestly, the plastic washers are there to keep the paint from being marred. Heat hasn’t been a problem thus far. I don’t think it’s a problem as long as you stay away from exhaust system parts. I wouldn’t hook the loops to anything near the engine anyway. Besides, you want to try to find a attachment point close to the hood/fender gap or the rope tension will pull the strap loops in onto the hood.
My car is a Pontiac Vibe which is a hatchback. I use two individual ropes (the rope ratchets) in the rear because of the distance from the boat stern and hook points under the car. In the front, I use a single rope going from the left loop, up to the boat (and twisted around) and back down to the right loop because the bow attachment point is directly above and in the plane as the loops. In both cases (front and rear) there is a three point attachment.
If I have two boats up top, I use four individual ropes. The passenger side bow attachment hooks to the driver’s side hood loop and the reverse for the other boat. Same in the rear. In this configuration, the ropes are in an “X” pattern. This way, the boats are being pulled in towards each other.
I’ll switch to using 4 ropes all the time when I order another set of rope ratchets since I only have have two right now. I use the single rope up front and tie a couple half-hitches in the line. Using two individual lines is always preferable in a failure situation for obvious reasons; the single looped line could fail and leave no front tie-downs. Yes, I’m a little lazy too; having a full set of 4 rope ratchets means I’ll never have an excuse not to use four ropes every time.
Phreon
Trailer
The above poster considering a trailer like Redmonds, consider bow and stern tie downs on your trailer. I know the major trailer manufacturers do not suggest bow and stern lines on a trailer, and neither would I, but phroen and others do. See pictures:
http://www.rackandroll.com/
So, phreon, you have a captive market for convincing the trailer makers about bow and stern lines. Sure, the trailer is underneath the draft line, but you know how much bounce those things take over the miles? Talk about equipment failure. One bad experience with a flying kayak due to rack failure, and these trailer companies would be sued out of business. You'd think they'd care more since theor ass is on the line, and they are professional kayak transport manufacturers. Help them out.
Please persuade the rack makers, Rack and Roll and the others, to add bow and stern lines. I might buy a trailer, but knowing they'll be soon litigated out of business because of flying kayaks, I will wait until they make a change.
Mystical likely said it best with: "Car type, boat type, tie type, strap type, rack type, wind speed, distance, yada yada" The rack and car type does make a difference.
Maybe there is not one answer to this question
Here's to paddling and keeping kayaks on the vehicle, which are both goals of us all. :-) Happy day.
Phreon’s right–but for fast and secure
I use those, but to make them even more secure, I hammered the S-hook closed and attached a heavy duty Stainless steel carabiner. Instead of using the other s-hook, I attached a swivel snap ring to the other end of the rope–the end that attaches to the carry handle on the boat.
http://www.a1toolstore.net/servlet/the-279/Marine-Snaps-Hooks-Clips/Detail
Clip the swivel snap hook to the boat carry loop. Clip the carabiner to the tow hook under the car. Snug up the rope. Tie off the excess. Done!
Quick. Easy. Won’t accidentally come loose. This eliminates the fear that a previous poster mentioned…that the rope could come loose.
I have been behind (or have been passed) by too many 18-wheelers that have made me really glad I had my boats secured with the bow/stern lines. Gunwale brackets help prevent side-to-side movement, too.
Another point of view
If I were driving BEHIND you at 65 mph I sure would want you to have bow and stern tie downs. For the extra 2 min it takes to put them on you could save a life. Damage to cars and boats can be fixed.
Would you NOT use a PFD because you haven’t upset your canoe/kayak in years?
Sure the chances of a boat coming off are low but if (when) one does could you live with yourself if you injured/killed someone in the car behind you?
Their lawyer probably wouldn’t have a problem saying you were negligent for not using them.
Cooldoctor1…it’ll be ok. I promise.
You're taking this way too personally and appear to be grasping at straws. Now you're bringing trailers into the discussion to prove the point that you're correct? Take it easy; I've taken your advice under consideration before, but this time I disagree. This is a discussion about safety, not a religious jihad about how right you are.
Every kayak trailer I've ever seen is constructed steel or aluminum channel. The cross bars are attached to the main body ever so slightly better than car-top racks using either heavy bolts or welds. If your standard auto rack was attached the same way, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
Since trailer racks are so robust, failure is a non-issue. The straps you use could still fail, but that would be your fault, not the trailer manufacturers. And yes, the boats are generally behind the car's slipstream and therefore are not subject to the same forces and they would be perched on the roof.
So no, trailer manufacturers generally don't mention bow/stern tie downs. However, this thread is about roof racks and their manufacturers emphatically recommend them.
Phreon
I think they’re wise - especially for
long boats on cars with short rack spacing.
Even one bow and stern line could help keep a boat against the rack, rather than launching off of the vehicle, if there is a failure of either the rack, saddles or belly straps and hopefully allow the driver to get safely off of the road and stop without any collateral damage to other motorists or vehicles.
My car only has about 36" of spacing between the racks, so, as suggested above, two bow lines are most effective to keep the bow from flexing side to side in high winds or in the turbulence encountered when behind or when passing semi tractor trailers. When I’m having a particulary wise day, I use two tie downs on both the bow and stern in addition to the two belly straps.
From my perspective of a driver of a car with clamped on (Thule) roof racks spaced only 36" apart, bow and stern lines should significantly reduce the stress on the rack mounts should I stop suddenly or the car get rear ended. Some of the energy of the change of speed or direction would be distributed to the bow and stern tie downs and their anchors rather than being completely focused on the four rack mounts and the saddles/brackes and belly straps.
Those with more widely spaced racks or sturdier rack mounting systems, may not share the same concerns that I have.
Sure, as cooldoctor1 points out, if a bow line fails, it could bang into the windshield or the finish of the car and go under the car where it might cause more damage. But, the mechanism on the bow tie down shouldn’t be any more likely to fail than the mechanism on the belly straps, so I guess there’s no real concern about the bow lines failing if properly installed, since properly installed ratcheting belly straps never fail.
Yes, my car hood finish has some wear marks from the straps rubbing on it where they come from under the car, but that’s less damage than would be incurred if the boat came loose and severly torqued the rack mounts or came off of the car and caused an accident. I think that’s a small price to pay. Those rub marks bould probably be buffed out if I should decide to sell the car.
On vehicles with racks spaced far enough apart that not much boat sticks out past the rack, the side to side flexing of the boat will likely be less than that experienced by the same boat on a vehicle with shorter rack spacing, so one bow line may be good enough.
Take it easy, phreon.
We're really saying the same thing: if one has a crappy rack, then tie it down with bungie, rope, hemp, ratchet straps or whatever it takes. Include the bow line; my only point about that is simply that, should a ratchet rope cam (as shown nicely in original poster's photo) fail, it is a dented hood or busted windshield at best, and a major accident from sudden driver distraction at worst when it goes underneath.
If one has a secure and substantial rack system, then I am merely suggesting a set of three ratchet cam locks. They are ultra-secure.
Racks first, then appropriate ropes.
Here are some alternative methods to consider:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasque/242044275/
Like the way they stuffed that blue kayak up in there.
Here's one that would have ghoti calling the State Highway Patrol:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/freewine/32441701/
This guy has a 20 foot tandem with two straps.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadd/278796809/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregmote/170266581/
Maybe he needs to throw a ratchet strap on there, even I would say. :-)
Anyone interested, go to yahoo.com, and in the search hit Image (top of page) and simply search "kayak car", and man, you can see all sorts of zany options, everything from too many lines to none. Seems that many manufacturers do not have lines in their literature:
http://www.discount-trailers.com/kayak_carriers.htm
I guess they are espousing the quality of theri racks (and those of a Volvo)
Even the biggies, like Malone:
http://www.maloneautoracks.com/
I have a great paddling friend who has a sideways kayak mount like that on an SUV, and that thing is totally, in my opinion, unstable, but he secures it well and , apporpriately, is seeking a better rack system that allows the kayak to be hull down.
But a great "real" canvasing of the subject is on theyahoo search. Hundreds of ideas. I just picked out a couple funny ones. Check yahoo.
Rack and roll, indeed.