I will.
Promise. : )
Faith…
– Last Updated: Jul-10-07 10:24 AM EST –
Faith .n Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
I find it very interesting that those who forgo simple end tie-downs largely cite faith in their equipment for doing so. The common arguments I hear are, "well, I've been doing it for years with no problem" and "My rack is solid". You do realize you're playing the odds, right?
The odds are a funny thing. They tell you the likelihood of an event is so low that it's probably not worth worrying about. Odds are you won't trip today and scuff your knee. Odds are your pen won't leak in your pocket (unless it's a Bic). Odds are your car will start in the morning. Odds are your place of business won't catch of fire. Funny thing is, I've had every one of those odds fail me. And you?
I have an acquaintance who was born without a leg, hit by lightening, and bitten by a brown recluse spider. She's also been in at least one freakish auto accident that left her with pins in her arm. Do you know how unlikely the odds are that any of these things would happen to her, let alone ALL of them? They're astronomical, yet she is living proof that sh!t happens.
Sure, the odds of a catastrophic rack or strap failure are very low, but what are the consequences if the odds choose you? When that faith fails you and destroys your paint job or grinds a hole in your boat, so be it. However, if your faith didn't protect an innocent bystander from being impaled by a flying boat, you are a criminal.
Sure, that truck bed mounted rack is rock solid (my friend has one, it's impressive) and you inspect your equipment regularly. So do I. The risk of a failure is low, but the consequences are high, however. This is why a pilot inspects his aircraft before every flight, every weld in a nuclear reactor is X-rayed and both the airplane and reactor have multiple, redundant systems.
You are not omnipotent; you can't predict every eventuality. The best you can do is try to prepare. This is why I continue to contend that the only reason to skip a safety method as simple as bow/stern tie-downs is one of sheer laziness and arguments against are selfish, shallow rationalizations.
Phreon
well put, but …
I fear you don’t fully comprehend the soul of the p-net community.
Please allow me to summarize:
- My boat is great; your boat sucks;
- We don’t make mistakes; but other “lesser” people do;
- He who shouts the loudest the longest is right; and,
- It’s more important to look and act cool than to be smart.
so where do you fit in?
This doesn’t describe you…does it?
Phreon:
I would trust you to cartop any of my boats anytime.
Jim
ouch
I think that left a mark
My faith was shattered…
I never used to use bow and stern lines. But then one day my faith in the factory rack caught up with me…
http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=827
Dan
http://www.westcoastpaddler.com
I agree with you guys
Though much of my rack is home-built, the part I trust the least is the attachment of the factory-rack anchors to the roof. For all I know, they might have used sheet-metal screws, and if there are bolts on the inside of the roof, I can guarantee that they are tiny and easily stripped (that’s just the way these things are done in the automotive industry these days).
Name-brand racks are not necessarily much better. I carry a friend’s kayak on my roof using her Thule J-hooks (not sure of the real name). They are designed so that it works best to strap the boat to the cradle, not to the crossbar. Ever look and see what holds that J-hook to the cross bar? Two little 1/8-inch bolts, with one end embedded in plastic (I think the thumbscrew threads are plastic too). Think that’ll never fail? I think it looks really flimsy and I don’t trust it (I’d feel a lot better if the bolts screwed into something made of steel).
A pair of tiedowns front and rear will keep your boat on the roof if your rack attachement fails. With canoes, you can even make your stern tiedowns run nearly straight up and down between the bumper and a middle thwart, so that boat really has nowhere to go if the rack fails (it’s also dandy “quick stop” insurance if those ropes attach a little forward of straight up and down, and on some boats, that really helps). As Mike M. points out, if you know how to tie knots, all this attaches really fast. I use all ropes (no straps), and can install two main tiedowns with trucker’s hitch, four bow and stern lines with a tautline, and two extra loops around the boat at the front cross bar to take the role of gunwale stops, all in the same amount of time it takes the average person to attach a pair of cam-lock straps. Wasted time is not the issue in my case. Playing it safe is.
I’ll do that some day,…
… but it will require complete removal of the headliner, and on modern cars, those can’t be re-installed without specialized equipment, so it’s a job best left to a body shop. Also, I’ll need to spend an afternoon fabricating nice steel recievers for the hold-down bolts. Is this what you had in mind when you say “fix the rack”? Even though I haven’t done it yet, it IS something I am able to do. Most people have neither the tools nor experience to tackle such a job and do it well.
Ratchet versus trucker’s hitch, etc.
Just my point of view. This is assuming a single safety line at each end of each kayak.
On the kayak end. Ratchets and S hooks may work fine. Personally I don’t see the need for the extra hardware and see it as another failure point, versus a trucker’s hitch. I’m a knot dummy. I found the trucker’s hitch a little tricky to learn and remember at first. Easy to actually tie though. About as difficult as tying a shoe. And after the 10th time, easy to remember. Very secure. No hardware required.
On the vehicle end. On the Honda Odyssey minivan which I only occasionally use to carry kayaks, and has the plastic bumper, I put the web straps under the hood. Those ones with eyelets, for which someone posted a URL in this thread, look pretty handy. Nice clean job to attach them to a bolt. I didn’t know about those and just tied web strapping though holes in the frame under the hood.
For regular carry, though, personally, I would want rings under the bumper or just behind the bumper. I wouldn’t want to have to pop the hood every time. Even with the plastic bumpers on newer vehicles, there should be a piece of box tube steel under there. Not sure what a body shop would charge to install steel rings, two in front and two in back, but it might be worth it, over the years.
I have a Toyota Solara as my primary vehicle that already has rings just behind the plastic bumper. To facilitate attaching a nylon rope under there, I added stainless steel quicklink rings http://www.berkeleypoint.com/products/hardware/quicklink.html and keep a stainless steel carabiner on one end of the rope to attach to the quicklink ring. The rings and carabiners can be bought at BiMart or Home Depot or similar.
On paint wear from ropes. My Solara is a metallic black sport coupe, with nice aluminum wheels. I have an array of light scratches and a couple minor dents on the roof from the cam buckles and other minor mishaps. My vehicles go to near zero value before I sell them, anyway. I think sports related battle scars on the vehicle, including wear on the bumpers from ropes, if it occurs, are cool. I don’t go to much effort to prevent them. If you keep your vehicles for a long time, it’s in the noise compared to all the other wear the vehicle is gonna get.
Paul
- tie-down lines are your back-up
only becomes an issue at high speeds, though (i.e. on the freeway)
(I’m gonna go out on a limb here
and guess that georgia_kayaker doesn’t use condoms either)
4a.
only becomes an issue at high speeds, though (i.e. on the freeway)
Or sitting completely still when the thunderstorm rolls in while you’re parked having lunch.
Cooldoctor1, good points about
inspecting the racks, straps and saddles etc. on a regular basis to reduce the likelihood of failure.
Earlier this year, the feet on my Thule rack had loosened a little and slid out of position a little, so I tightened them all up a little.
RE: Ratchet versus trucker’s hitch, etc
– Last Updated: Jul-11-07 12:30 AM EST –
FWIW, I couldn't find a single suitable place under my front bumper to attach tie-downs to. And my front bumper cover doesn't seem to solid. Popping the hood too pull up my loops isn't as annoying as having to get on the ground to attach the hooks.
I've wondered about the stress my ratchets put on the rope considering the way it grips. However, at least the rope is held in a constant curve. I've read that a knot significantly weakens a rope's tensile strength. It's a toss-up in my mind.
Phreon
or sitting still when
the kayak gnomes come and try to lift your boats
Ratchet Ropes
– Last Updated: Jul-11-07 8:44 AM EST –
I am a long time user of ratchet ropes. I primarily use them on the stern, as I need to loosten that tie to access the rear hatch on my Suby. A ratchet makes for convenient loostening/tightening.
Ropes WILL wear at the ratchet engagement point. Ropes are easily replaced - I prefer braided polyester yachting line.
I have never had a ratchet fail. My employees use them to secure miscellaneous loads during maintenance work, and we have never had a failure there either.
FWIW, here are WORKING loads for various sizes:
1/8 - 75#
1/4 - 150# (common size for boating)
3/8 - 250#
1/2 - 500#
Jim
One last thought: Both Yakima and Thule sell these devices as being suitable for bow/stern lines. I imagine that A) both companies did a reasonable amount of testing, and B) their legal & risk management departments vetted the products.
boy, there’s a lot of piety in this thre
So, if you’re the guy sipping the big gulp, running with tires underinflated, tailgating, angry behind the wheel, no seatbelt on, not using turn signals, on the phone, and driving 15 over or 15 under, we’ll remember not to grant you so much latitude next time.
Worry about yourself. It’s the only thing you can control.
Rachet failure is not the problem
The problem is the hooks at both ends. They only work if there is tension on the rope. There are lots of ways that the tension can go slack including a rack failure. I have a set and used them for a while. I wrapped the rope around the hook to help keep it attached but decided that was not secure enough. I am back to just ropes now.