light not heat
very nice post. it is important to understand things like this that are like many aspects of kayaking, counter intuitive.
perceived vs actual danger is a common reason for many dangerous events not being understood.
for example, driving a car or crossing a busy city street are far more dangerous, i.e., probability of getting hurt and seriously hurt DRAMATICALLY higher than flying on a commercial plane. But many people area totally blase about driving but scared about flying.
I have a permanent rack on my car and use double tie downs, the equivalent to a removable rack and tie downs. In reading your post though, I am going to start using tie downs also.
Thank you!!!
In the event of an accident
Ok…What about a surf ski?
Surf ski’s don’t have any attachment points for bow or stern lines.
Typically what I do for a long trip is along with the straps, I’ll put on my lasoo locks. They prevent the boats from sliding forward or backward in case the straps fail.
Most important to me is trust in my rack. I make sure it’s secure and not about to fall off or fail. And during any stop I make, I check the straps and tighten as needed.
I showed my set up to Miss Crabtree and she gave me a stamp of approval.
only for me
only for me, NOT you. I have decided to be self honest finally. My not using tie downs was purely selfish. Just did not want to bother. Easier form me to rationalize.
Ethics is about responsibility to others not self. So I decided this thing should not be about me, which I have been doing. It is about not having this stuff sail off my car and hurt someone.
Again, for me. Each person decides for themselves : > )
Stay off the Maine Pike today!!!
I’ve got a canoe on my roof and it might have your name on it!
The sucker’s tied on there every which way but loose,… but you never know.
broken racks and flying boats
– Last Updated: Jun-27-09 7:38 PM EST –
I imagine that the percentage of times a boat flies off a vehicle relative to the number of times a boat is cartopped is indeed small, and one can probably go a lifetime without using a bow tie down without having this experience. But I have known 3 people who have had this experience and the mechanism in all 3 cases was almost indentical to an incident described in Lou Glaros' and Charlie Wilson's book "Freestyle Canoeing".
In all instances long boats were being cartopped with 2 belly straps or ropes across the hull, one at each rack crossbar, but no bow line was used. For various reasons the strap or rope across the hull at the front crossbar failed, either due to failure of a cam device, a broken strap, a knot coming undone, or a tied rope walking off the end of the crossbar. Immediately, the wind force lifted the bow of the boat with great force, snapped the rear crossbar off of the towers, and the boat took off with the rear crossbar still attached.
This might not occur with a short kayak and if you are absolutely certain that your ropes, cams, straps, or knots will never, ever fail, then you can dispense with the bow tie-down. I find, however, that a triangulated bow tie-down does help prevent the front of a long boat from yawing back and forth in response to crosswinds, in addition to providing a visual reminder that a boat is up there.
you still here kricky?
Wonder if the OP is still here, or if maybe they sold the kayak and bought bicycles instead after reading this thread.
Bow/stern tie downs.
– Last Updated: Jun-28-09 10:33 AM EST –
Edited to add: You use bow/stern tie towns to counteract the LIFTING FORCE a big boat generates when it's whizzing through the air at 50 mph. Racks are rated for X pounds of weight, but you'll never see how much upward force they can resist. Most factory rails are held to the car with just a few sheet metal screws. Aftermarket racks like Thule and Yakima are great, but do you really trust those little metal clips to NEVER fail? Imagine the stress you're putting your boat under and the force imparted to your rack if you grab the bow of your boat and yank it straight towards the sky. This is what bow lines counteract.
Yes, I'll skip the bow/stern tie downs if I'm doing a quick, low speed, back-road playboat shuttle, but you'll never catch me carrying my sea kayak or canoes without them.
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I had a real problem finding bow tie down spots on my car. Like many modern vehicles, It has a huge plastic bumper that severely impairs the chance of finding a secure tie down.
Under the hood where the fenders meet the body, there are often various holes stamped in the panels. I don't know why they're there, but they can be the perfect place to bolt in a home-made tie down.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/hpim1115.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/hpim1116.jpg
Similarly, there are usually stamped holes in the unibody frame member under the rear of a car one can get a good sized hook into. Just beware of hot exhaust parts; they can burn the rope and YOU!:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/hpim1117.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/phreon/hpim1119.jpg
If you have problems with the rope rubbing through, slip it through a length of vinyl tubing for protection at the wear spot. Everything you need (except the webbing itself) is available at Home Depot.
Phreon
I always use them. I had cross winds
so strong that would force me every half hour or so to stop so that I could retie my canoes. The wind would blow the canoes over the gunwales brackets on my Yakima racks. I found that using two ropes instead of one would stop the the canoes from twisting loose.
for surfskis
I use a loop strap up over the bow with a towel between strap and hull. Then attach two lines that run to either side of the front of the car. Creates a V and really helps in crosswinds.
In the stern, I loop a strap around the hull down to under the bumper to relieve rack if I have to brake suddenly.
I use some rope to keep both bow and stern lines in place.
well
its another extra level of safety I suppose but I never use them and I don’t know any other people who use them on a regular basis—If you have either a yakima or thule system with J-Racks that fits your car then generally you would be fine. If you are using cradles on a thule or yakima system you might need them but still doubtful—If you are using those foam block racks or the autos own rack then by all means tie down the bow and stern-----why not tie down the bow and stern all the time you ask? Good question —For most F/G boats it probably wouldn’t hurt the boat to snug down the ends but for RM boats it can result, over time, in a mishaping of the hull—and you may end upgoing in circles when you don’t want to—BTW I have driven from Ottawa to Maine and Maine to Virginia in horrendus wind and rain with no bow and stern lines and have had no problem.
Racks and cradles
So I guess Thule and Yakima got it all wrong when they recommend tie downs? Why would they know any better than the rest of us. I mean, it’s not like they are experts on racks or something… are they?
Seriously: In previous post I mentioned an accident where racks and kayaks broke loose (in a single unit), flew across the mid barrier and landed in the oncoming lane of the highway. It’s not difficult to imagine that it all could have ended in tragedy. The cradles and straps all did an excellent job in keeping the kayaks attached to the racks, but they couldn’t stop the racks from failing. An accident that could easily been prevented with tie downs.
ok
"… but I never use them and I don’t know any other people who use them on a regular basis-"
Everybody we know uses bow tie downs. maybe it’s a cultural thing…
There are a lot of forces at work on the boats and racks while driving down the road. Any thing longer than the rack is going to present torque forces on the rack.
Here is my take on it. The ‘best practice’ for safety (and what if’s? )and peace of mind, appears to be:
use bow and stern tie downs
use cam straps to secure boats to rack system
inspect rack system on a regular basis
inspect tie downs at every stop during a trip
I would not care to explain to a judge why i did not follow these very common and universally accepted steps. The ACA, USCanoe, rack manufacturers all say use bow and stern lines on overhanging boats.
On really long trips (dallas to yukon territory) we use extra cam straps around the boat and cross bars to supplement the cradle straps that go around the boat securing it to the the cradle
Tie-Downs
Although I didn’t go back and count, it’s apparent that the vast majority of posters to this thread use tie-downs, despite the fact that a couple of posters have mentioned that few or none of their group use them.
If I may, I think a few of the best arguments espoused for tie-downs include:
o It’s an extra margin of safety if the unexpected occurs
o The aerodynamic forces at play are significant and can result in the unexpected occurring
o Tie-downs are recommended by the major rack manufacturers and by the major kayak and canoe associations (who should have expertise in this matter)
o There is some history of rack systems that have, in fact, failed.
o Individuals should take into account potential risk to others on the road and the possible devastating result of a boat flying through the air.
o The potential financial liability is huge.
As far as I can determine, the following are the major arguments for not using tie-downs:
o A well-maintained and properly-installed top quality rack system in combination with correctly installed and well-maintained ropes/straps will not fail.
o Nobody in my group of acquaintances uses tie-downs
o Tie-downs are not necessary for short boats
o A tie-down may come loose and wrap around the axle or tire, resulting in damage
o I have no place on my vehicle to secure tie-downs.
o It takes time to put on and take off the tie-downs (I didn’t see this reason mentioned in the thread, but it makes sense that this is a reason some individuals don’t use tie-downs)
Does this pretty much sum up this thread? Did I miss anything of significance?
bow & stern lines
I thought that they were actually required by law in some states…does anyone know if that is the case?
There is much good advice in the posted comments. Leaving aside kayaks (which have their own specialized mounting cradles for roof rack transport), here is what I think I can add when it comes to mounting a canoe/small boat to the roof rack on your vehicle:
- The true strength in roof rack attachment of canoes is in the roof rack itself, and in the tension straps used to attach the the canoe to the roof rack.
- To ensure good attachment, use reputable roof racks (Thule and Yakima have been mentioned).
- Make doubly sure that the roof rack itself has been properly installed and the screw tensioning mechanisms are tight. Check and double-check this, every time you use the roof rack… they must not be loose! Don’t be shy about driving to an after-market trailer/roof rack installer and asking them to inspect it for you and advise on maintenance.
- Make sure the cross bars are as far forward and aft on the roof as they can be positioned. Roof racks that are part of most vehicle standard equipment may not be good enough in this regard. Check with experts to see if you need a more versatile after-market option.
- Always, always, always use gunwale rests (L-shaped or other) to secure canoe gunwales on the cross bars! Make sure they are well-secured to the cross bars, that they are snug to the gunwales of your vessel, and check every time you mount the canoe on the roof rack. These may be the most important securing devices you have for your canoe… they prevent side-to-side motion.
- Use at least two tension straps to secure the canoe, one on the forward cross-bar and one on the aft. And, if you are security-minded, don’t hesitate to double up with 2 tension straps on the forward cross-bar (and, if you are paranoid, 2 on the back cross bar).
- And now the bow and stern down straps to the forward and rear bumpers – I don’t use them. My reason is that, as they pull the bow and stern downward, they tend to “break the back” of the canoe. Not a desirable outcome. They are helpful, in my view, only if you have not paid sufficient attention to steps 1-6. So my advice, for what it is worth from 30 years of canoe roof rack carrying, at highway speeds on multi-day journeys, is to go to town on all the above steps and leave the fore and aft down straps to the bumpers off.
I think that 8 years on from the original thread we’re all pretty much in agreement that bow and stern lines are an excellent idea.
Happy 4th.