Experienced and well skilled paddlers I know talk of capabilities when discussing boats.
Does the boat perform well in conditions in which it may be used? Does the boat interact well with the paddler's efforts to maintain appropriate control?
It may be more accurate to speak of capable and demanding. Such as how capable is the boat? How demanding is it of the paddler's skills and attention in order for it to perform well?
What is the intended use of the boat? What are its target paddlers' expectations? How well the boat performs in its intended uses and how well it meets it's target paddler's expectations are the traits that matter most.
If the intended use is in flat to moderate seas, with minimum interaction from the paddler, then those wide North American boats are very suitable or 'advanced.' If the intended use is in dimensional water with an active paddler, then many of the Brit boats are more suitable or 'advanced.'
everyone’s forgetting another reason. it is fun and interesting to own things that are exotic and imported. one can’t discount that as a reason amongst the other more rational arguments presented.
So what is my boat? It was not made or designed in Britain (rather, Western United States). It has neither a rudder or a skeg. It is not wide (21 inches). It is not slow and handles well in rough conditions. And it is not a QCC. My point is while the idea of a Brit boat is sort of a reasonable category (but still really fuzzy) the alternative category or categories are not at all well specified. It is not particularly accurate to create a stereotype of the wide, overly stable “North American” boat. I have an Eddyline Falcon 18.
right no snobs no getting peeved Yep, years ago, I had some reactions to folks about how x boat only good boat, Brit boats better, etc. That is the problem with a discusssion like this. I think we are trying to not have it descend into this whose toy is better than etc.
so the only point here is finally the demand is enough that we get a variety of companies competing to give us more modern contruction processes, more for the money, and the variety that allows us to have the boat fit us and what we do in it rather than plop down a wad of money and then have to justify the purchase by convincing ourselves that 4" of foam outfitting later the fit is perfect.
Enjoy your Falcon, quite a fast boat and handles allot of conditions darn nice, imo.
An above post mentions that it is confusing for people getting into the sport - must be very. It seems to take getting into a lot of boats to get a handle on the issue of the boat's capability.
Seems that "Brit boats", whatever that actually means, are sometimes perceived as being more somthing (tougher, more capable, sexier etc.) because newbies see a lot of guides paddling them. But that just means the boat has good ability to be a rescue platform and will behave without requiring tons of attention in conditions. The classic example is the NDK Explorer, which is often chosen as a guide boat but is also the kindest boat out there to a new paddler in conditions. It's much less alarming feeling for someone new at this in waves than say a Foster Silhouette. However, it'll also go out the next day and be a great boat for doing advanced skills, long boat surfing, etc when the right paddler is sitting in it. While I am personally a Brit boat fan, it is solely because of what the boat helps me do.
The Valley boats like the Avocet, to my mind, should be as easy for beginners because their secondary stability is so distinct and strong, and they carve a turn so willingly. But we have heard of cases where someone who paddled a Romany was unnerved by the more noticeable motion of the Avocet. Different strokes I guess.
In the end, the most important factor in a boat's performance is the paddler. The only thing that the boats themselves contribute is more of less of a given handling characteristic, and the kinda warm and fuzzy overall feel to which a particular paddler may respond strongly. There are many paddlers who have no interest in moving beyond a certain point in their skills work - probably because they have more of a life than some of us! - and it'd be silly for them to spend a ton of money on a boat that requires they spend a lot of time in it just to be able to handle it safely.
The whole Brit boat and capability thing - it feels like it starts wandering into discussions that are like trying to define God. Once your butt is in a kayak seat, a good portion of the response is pretty personal regardless of the measurable stuff. I feel like my Explorer LV is willing to help me out in conditions, and if one fit me right could feel the same way about the Valley Avocet/Aquanaut line, but the feeling long precedes the measurable reasons why.
Just switched from Greenland boat After some harrowing conditions I experienced in my Betsie Bay Recluse on a trip to Isle Royale this summer, I promptly sold my aged Betsie Bay Manitou in order to finance a new Valley Avocet RM.
It only took me a few outings in the Avocet to realize I’d likely not paddle my Recluse again, so I sold that, too.
I really enjoyed my BBK for a number of its great design qualities (no volume behind the seat made it easy to empty a flooded cockpit, hard-chined v-hull tracked like a train) but the Avocet is such a pleasure to paddle. I was amazed how quickly it jumped out of the water the first time I bent my paddle with it.
I like my Brit boat for the following reasons:
Compared to a Greenland design boat, the cockpit feels roomy to me
Construction is top-notch; definitely the best-built plastic boat on the market
Watertight convenient hatches
Excellent rough-water handling properties
So, having been a rabid Greenland paddler, I’ve “come over to the dark side” and am now a supporter of British boats. I can see myself going places with this boat I never would have considered before.
Skills You guys can’t be persuiting any balance skills given that most Brit boats paddle like barges.
Sorry couldn’t help that comment…
But my immediate impression when sitting in a Sirius/Capella/Avocet/Explorer type of boat is - “boy is this thing big”. The Anas Acuta feels more reasonable while a Silhouette is even better. But those are not your typical Brit boats.
Definitions Defining a BBK as a “Greenland” boat is probably a slipperier slope than trying to define what a Brit boat is!
It will be interesting to see if the BBK fan club jumps more on your defection from their ranks, or my casting doubt as to them being “Greenland” boats! L
Even my SOF, which would be “Greenland” enough based on design/construction/materials to be accepted in the Greenland class in the annual comps in Greenland - is not a Greenland boat! If it isn’t - then a BBK, or Anas/Q-boat, or something like a CD Caribou, or even and Arctic Hawk certainly isn’t.
Greenland inspired, maybe (though I see that being used to describe any boat with hard chines! Same folks who do that likely think a GP is just a skinny bladed euro/canoe paddle L).
Splitting hairs, and side-tracking the topic, as is par for the course here.
Here’s why I like them/why I asked I stumbled upon British style boats long before I cared or knew anything about “British style” or “Greenland style” boats etc.
I had paddled many different boats and was not in love with any of them until I paddled a Dagger Meridian (Romany copy). I just loved it. I loved the soft chines, I loved its ability to edge and its secondary stabilty, I found it so maneuverable. To me it was just far superior to anything else I had tried. I came to love that boat and its graeful handling in the water, and found it very confidence inspiring in rough conditions.
I recently sold it and got a Valley Aquanaut. I wanted something longer and faster. I would have kept the Meridian, but I can only afford to have one kayak. I like the Aquanaut even better! It’s better in rough water and the handling astounds me—it is so manueverable for a 17.5 foot boat. The rough water handling to me is astonishing. I feel quite secure in the worst conditions. I feel the boat can take on anything. I am just so completely impressed with this boat. I have tried other boats, but I seem to prefer the British style boats so much more than the other designs I have tried. Maybe one day I will find a boat out there I like better, but right now I continue to be impressed by British boats’ graceful handling and ability to takle rough conditions.
I just love them so far and wanted to stir up some conversations----figured there would be various opinions good and bad.
I came to like these boats initially for their performance not for their nostalgia or any of the other less important reasons suggested above.
All very good points… regarding hull shape, aesthetics, history, handling, “trendyness”, etc. However, there is a safety design philosophy that comes with a “brit” boat, in addition to whatever other reason you bought it for. A typical boat from Valley, PH and NDK is reinforced over the deck for rescues, has perimeter deck lines, composite or welded bulkheads to hang a footpump or use as a foot rest, taped and glass seams inside and out, end toggles (not samsonite handles), reduced floodable volume in cockpit including sloped rear bulkhead, watertight hatches and probably a day hatch, adequate but not excessive bungies.
En Norte America, we often use glued in foam or plastic for bulkheads because overwhelmingly rudder use is far higher and therefore cannot use a bulkhead and foot pumps are still in their youth here.
We often have more volume in cockpits because we are so burly over here we don’t mind heaving up a hundred pounds more of water in an assisted rescue. Did that space behind the cockpit just become a well? And then you open up your hatch and have to drain that well, too, from the inexact science of watertight hatch making. You might not like the soviet look of black rubber, but it beats the hell out of wet equipment.
Whatever the techniques for joining a hull and deck together, few or none surpass glassing inside or out. I have heard all the excuse makers suggest their extrusion is as good, etc, but having had a boat with one, I found them to be a cheap substitute.
You can make a deck work out for you if the manufacturer left it mostly bare. Add some lines with padeyes, and so forth, but it’s awfully nice to have that done for you with recessed hardware.
I have lots of friends that have NA style boats and they seem to have just as much fun as I do. From my small, little perspective, the discussion regarding Brit boats should include the design philosophy regarding safety features in addition to the performance issues.
forgot need to mention compass recess built in the boat…don’t have to cut a hole in the deck just to dedicate a compass…every boat should be equipted with a compass
the latter… I would definitely consider the Betsie Bay kayaks to be Greenland style kayaks. Heck, a judge at the Greenland championships even commented that Mark Molina’s Valkyrie was close enough in design to be considered a “qajaq” rather than a “qajariaq.”
I don’t know how strict we need to get in regards to determining what Greenland style kayaks really are as there seems to be a really wide range in designs from various parts of Greenland and its nearby islands. Being accepted into the Greenlandic class seems more to do with the kayak construction materials rather than design. Why do you think your SOF isn’t a Greenland style qajaq? I would definitely consider it one and I would also consider the Anas, Q-boat, and Arctic Hawk to be Greenland style as well. Now the Caribou is a hybrid but it could easily be considered Greenland influenced.
"Entirely different sport" Your comments in the last paragraph could apply to bicycling as well. It’s part of a general U.S. dumbing-down for lazy people who want to claim that they are adventurous athletes but can’t be bothered to put in the disciplined practice.
Need a couch for a bike seat? You need to lose fat and gain muscle.
Using dual suspension only for smooth-surfaced rides? Ditto. Riding isn’t all passive sitting down.
Can’t make a sea kayak go straight or turn when needed, in calm water with no wind? Well, slapping that rudder down isn’t going to help you learn. It’s meant to be a tool, not a crutch.
But what do you expect in a culture that would rather rely on airbags than take 2 seconds to buckle up; thinks Cruise Control = Autopilot; thinks that it’s now OK to slam the brakes on at the last second because “it has ABS”; drives 70 mpg in a snowstorm because "it has “AWD/4WD/traction control”; and watches DVDs while driving?
Glad you’re enjoying Glad to hear you are still enamoured pf your Aquanaut. I’ve had mine for 2.5 years and, in dome ways, enjoy it more than any other long boat.(though my Romany is more fun messing around) It is my first choice for longer paddles and challenging conditions.
SFL SOF Well, it’s not a Greenland boat because it was built in S Florida by a non-Greenlander. Meets their standards - but that’s not enough for me to lay claim to it being one of theirs.
As for “Greenland style” - it uses their construction methods - but deviates from current Greenland designs and is lacking some features some consider representative of the type:
Pinched ends - NO
Widest point at Masik - NO
Fishform (or even symmetric) - No
Three arm spans long - No
Of course same could be said of some older Greenland designs that are longer and fuller in the ends. Mine’s within the range of reported specs - so it’ Greenlandic enough I suppose.
I’m just recognizing two things with this hair splitting: I’m not a Greenlander - and I had specific design intents that resulted in something a little different than what is typically built.
