Yup
You need all the parts working right at the right time. But I can mess things up by focusing on one part to the exclusion of the others. This particular process seems good for me because, by the time I push my head down, everything else is set in the position it needs to be to come up. So I am less likely to sweep the paddle and forget to hip snap, or hip snap and forget to cock my wrist, etc etc.
I have also tried sighting the paddle in a pool with goggles, and it works quite nicely. But I don’t open my eyes under water (learned to swim that way and the eyelashes get in there and I can’t see anyway). So in a real scenario all of my work from under the water has to be by feeling my body position (or the correct shape of an adjacent object like a boat in a T rescue). The less that body parts are moving, the more reliable my roll is likely to be.
500, 499, 498, 497, 496, 495, 494, . . .
As Celia pointed out, the suggestions I offered are nothing new to rolling theory. In fact Celia had so much right about her rolling technique, that there was very little that required any adjustment at all.
The hand placement on the bottom of the hull encouraged a deeper wind-up (the first “C”), while the head pushing down on the upper-arm encouraged a deeper final position (the second “C”) and delayed the head-lift.
To Celia’s credit, she was confident enough to just do what was suggested without overanalyzing the suggestions. Celia already knew “how” to roll. I just helped her find a way to stop thinking about rolling and let her body do what it already knew how to do.
I’m sure the whole exchange took less than 5 minutes. While I was happy to have been able to share the moment, I can hardly take credit for anything more than reinforcing what Celia already knew.
Congrats Celia. Now of course the real work starts . . . 500 or so effortless-rolls from now you’ll have burned the sensations deep into your memory. Have fun rolling and try not to lose count!
Cheers,
Jed
Not bs at all.
It makes a big difference which motion you use to initiate the hip snap. From the position after the sweep, if you pull down on your paddle as the first action you have a good chance of not coming up. However, if you let the paddle passively follow the action of your body and initiate the hip snap with your head, you will roll. Pulling down on the paddle is not the same thing as using your paddle for support.
Good point again…
I think that was part of my problem in that I was initiating the roll by pulling down on the paddle. I would come up, but not with a lot of power. Furthermore, my paddle was diving and putting A LOT of pressure on my shoulder (which is how hurt it in the first place and how I continued to make it worse with rolling practice—which is why I went back to practicing with the paddle float).
Now I am wondering if my “look at the paddle blade” technique is wrong and if I should try the teqnique of pushing my head into my upper arm. I think I will try it the next time I am out. What do you think?
Sighting the paddle
Now that I think about it, while I sighted the paddle in the pool to check for position I usually didn’t start things by pulling down on it right after. The sequence was to sight the paddle, confirm my angle was good then kick off the hip snap. Working right, everything else just comes along for the ride.
A couple of times I tucked the shaft under my arm and came up with it against my body, so strictly speaking I was pulling down the paddle, but it was with my entire torso. My head and torso rotated down with the paddle shaft as my posterior (and the attached boat) came up.
Above post on the risks is correct. Any time I start by pulling down on the paddle, usually something that happens when I get discombobulated like the first rolls in 46 degree water this spring, my success rate drops.
both?
When I was learning the C-to-C, my single biggest problem was not concentrating on the first “C”. You need a strong arch towards the surface to cock the spring, and I don’t see how to do that if you’re looking down. If I set up well the side of my helmet breaks the surface. Driving the head into the arm on the snap does sound like a good idea, though – I’ll try it the next time I’m out.
Another problem can be not releasing the high leg. If you’re coming up on the right, you engage your left leg for the first “C”, and your right leg for the second one. If you don’t relax the left leg when you drive with the right it inhibits the roll. This can be an outfitting issue – if you need to keep tension in both legs to keep from falling out it decreases your range of motion.
Engaging the Offside Leg???
Hmmm… interesting comment above about engaging the offside knee when forming the first C. I guess that I have done this too in order to really wind up my body and to almost tilt the boat in the opposite direction so as to get more momentum when starting the hip snap.
I would sometimes do it this way and sometimes not. I always wondered which was more correct.
So is engaging the offside knee like something that will help your roll???
think golf swing or baseball pitcher
or the beginning of power for each forward stroke, all the same storing up of power, the wind up and then a release flowing up the body, torso, shoulders, arms and hands.
These ideas are labels to help our brains under water remember to wind it up and let it go. Effortless comes from the wind up and the release.
That is part of why when all flowing, hand rolls work, a great check on our technique imo
Yes.
At the end of the sweep your non-rolling knee should be supporting your arch to the surface. Then when you throw your head and body down you should straighten out the leg of the non-rolling knee and push with the ball of your foot against the foot support on that side. There are two reasons to do this. First, pulling up with the rolling knee and pushing out with the other leg creates more twisting force on the boat than simply relaxing the other leg. Second, some people have trouble relaxing the other leg and end up with “double knee engagement” and no rolling force. Pushing with the other leg gives you something positive to do and many find that easier.
exercise for setup C
Spotter required, nose clips or mask recommended.
Without your paddle, capsize and let yourself hang straight down, with your arms dangling over your head. Now slowly arch sideways towards the surface and see how high you can get – you should be able to clear the surface with your hands. Let yourself back down, and then do the same on the other side. When you run out of air, tuck & tap for your spotter.
Not holding a paddle lets you focus on body position and body mechanics.
The wind up
As I was learning (more sweep roll, but same basic knee engagement) I too thought of this as winding the spring (due to video input no doubt).
Now I think that focus on setup knee is really about getting me closer to the surface more than it is giving added “unwinding” power. The power to right the kayak comes from the rolling knee, and is just more effective when you’re not so deep in the water.
Instead of thinking wind up, I think about getting up toward the surface a bit more with that tuck.
This knee focus is what made the difference from my former almost rolls to my relatively easy rolls. The extra tuck up really helps no matter how you visualize/describe it. It also gave me a nice point to get my head together (FULL setup position) and proceed from there.
Before the day of my first rolls I only thought I knew what a hip snap was (and doing mostly sweep rolls mine’s probably not to strong). Trying a different kayak with very different outfitting also helped me feel the knee drive/timing in a new way. Just enough to make things click - in both kayaks.
Doing deep side sculling illustrates the setup knee wind up is not really needed for rolling power as that maneuver is done at the half way point with only rolling knee doing the flick (if any) and other leg can stay dead. In this case the sculling has you at the surface - that being the key. More related to sweep roll technique as the sculling is like the sweep held indefinitely prior to the brace up, but it still illustrates the point about being near the surface.
OK, “BS” too strong an acronym
Just trying to point out that it is a combo. of proper set-up, hipsnap, sweep, paddle-tug, driving knee, diving head etc.
Breaking down the individual steps is important when learning, or solving a problem with the roll.
In regard to Greyak stressing the "getting close to the surface", I have found that to be the most important part of my roll. Whenever I've blown a roll, it was because I was RUSHING (on the count of fast moving rocks headed in my direction). Taking the time to set-up properly, and really reach up to the surface guarantees a solid roll on the first attempt. So, ironically, slowing down makes it happen faster.
Getting a good C
There are some great pointers here. There are some points that have been brought up here that I have never read anywhere else.
Since we are going over some of the finer points of the C to C roll-----when I get into my first C position I look out at the paddle blade and then contine watching it the roll is complete as I have stated above.
Do you think that looking at the blade instead of straight ahead when in the first C position might prevent me from getting as good as a C position as possible?
Looking at the blade is a way…
… of keeping your head down. It’s especially useful to correct a head-up habit.
But given the advice around here recently, I’d try to turn the head thing on it’s… well… head.
So, don’t just strive to keep the head down to maintain your hip snap, aggressively push it down to actually activate your hip snap. And to do that, look down at your forearm, which is closer in and farther down than the paddle blade and hence even more agressive for head position.
At least that’s how I understand Jed’s technique – as passed from other masters of the roll – without geting in the water yet to try it.
–David
Watching the blade . . .
kept me from rolling because I would turn towards the blade as well. This made my brace less effective as it rotated to the stern, turned my back to the sky, and put me back in the water.
When I starting looking ahead and thought about bringing my knee and my ear as close together as possible, I began rolling.
Different Strokes
I might have started a bit more than I planned here… my initial point was that the image of driving my face/head down worked very well for me once set up in the position to initate the hip snap. That particular image or thought may not be the best way for everyone to handle the moment at which you basically change from the upward C to the downward C. The head/knee closer together is a neat idea too - that may be a good image to help avoid starting the whole thing from beyond 90 degrees and having to finish with a muscle up action that resembles a not slick end of a sweep roll more than a C to C.
Then there is always the human factor - I tried a couple at the end of an after work paddle tonight. I got the first one but not as nicely as this last weekend, then literally got my paddle stuck in the mud and blow the second one. It was no small feat to find a (pricey) black paddle that was now impaled well into disturbed river/creek muck. I decided to take the hint. I’ll be fresher Thursday at the regular practice session, at least enough to properly gauge the bottom!
Gee - now I’m blushing…
but I think I actually have closer to 900 to go, so it’ll keep me good and humble.
Driving the head down
OK, I tried it today. I have two observations.
First, it seems to me to be the exact equivalent of Eric Jackson's advice for a deep high brace -- drive your head into the water as hard as you can, which initiates the hip snap. In a roll, your head is already under water, so that advice won't work verbatim. But seems to me that driving your head toward your forearm is essentially the same movement, for essentially the same purpose.
Second, it didn't particularly improve my roll, but it seems like it would make a great mnemonic when you're starting out on a paddle and want to remind yourself one thing to remember when you capsize unexpectedly and might forget all that good training and even muscle memory. Likewise, it would work for starting to roll again after a long layoff.
Bottom line, nice technique! It's good for someone who already rolls, and, I presume, for someone who doesn't yet.
--David.
I cannot even begin to engage my abs
for the set-up without engaging the non-rolling knee. I key more off the feelings in my abs in the set up and my physical configuration around the boat, than I key off the knee, but I can feel it too. Then, as the second c begins, the non-rolling knee relaxes and the rolling knee engages and up I come (well, almost always).
"Face your work"
Is the term my recent BCU coach used.