Can a single kayak model really be built in different sizes?

[Shadepine]

@szihn - At the risk of sounding argumentative (which isn’t my intent at all), I think the concept of doing extremely tight turns in a sea kayak is kinda silly. Unless you’re rock gardening and surfing…but even then, you’d actually be better off in a whitewater kayak.

I say this as a longtime former whitewater paddler and slalom racer. From my perspective, a lot of what sea kayakers do when it comes to tight turns, surfing, etc. has already been done for decades in whitewater paddling (which of course is all about turning and surfing). Not that sea kayakers shouldn’t be allowed to push the limits of their boats…but doing edge turns is a good example:

Sea kayakers make a big deal out of edging the boat to turn, which always seems a bit odd to me. Like @Jyak, my goal in sea kayaking is to paddle long distances in (mostly) straight lines. I have no interest in surfing or rock gardening in a sea kayak (maybe because I spent thousands of hours paddling whitewater?).

But if I need to turn a sea kayak quickly, I’ll usually do it with whitewater strokes—powerful forward sweep strokes and draw strokes (and often a combination of the two—like to turn right, I’ll start with a big forward sweep on the left, then a draw on the right). These strokes (when done well) are very powerful and can turn even a turn-resistant sea kayak pretty quickly.

I don’t think I’d ever have any reason to spin a sea kayak in place, partly because turning strokes don’t work nearly as well when the boat is stationary as when you’re moving at speed. Those videos you posted are cool to watch, but (for example) in the second video, where he’s demonstrating the “extreme lean” while peeling out of an eddy back into the current…to my whitewater paddler’s mind, that’s a bad way to exit an eddy into the current, because it doesn’t accelerate the boat.

Doing the same thing in whitewater (exiting an eddy into powerful current) you always want to plant your downstream blade well forward in the current, with the blade open to the current—and let the current pull you out of the eddy. Then you convert that draw into a powerful forward stroke to accelerate up to the speed of the current. Then your next forward stroke on the other side has you going faster than the current, which is what you want!

Anyway, these are all just thoughts, not criticism. I’m a big believer in different branches of paddlesports adopting techniques from one another…and I think sea kayakers can learn a lot about paddling technique from whitewater paddlers.

PS - I often move my hands around on my Euro paddle, especially when paddling a boat with a skeg. For example if the wind and waves are on my beam, I’ll often just shift the whole paddle 6 inches in my hands so there is more paddle on the downwind side, making my stroke on that side of the boat longer and more powerful. And to my points above, I’ll often slide my hands right down to the blade when doing a sweep stroke just to get the sweep farther out to the side where there’s more leverage.

[szihn]

Well I could not disagree with anything you wrote. But my reason to do what I do is
(A) It’s fun
and (B) it’s good training.

As I said in my higher post, learning to turn my 17-18 foot sea kayak in 2 or 3 paddle strokes is not really necessary, but now that I can do it I can also turn it in easier and slower fashions.
Jyak and I have corresponded many times and he’s always told me he edge turned the kayaks, so I thought I’d ask him what he was doing to keep from swamping.

Jyak has coached me a lot in techniques to cover distance faster. And I have learned how to do it but for the most part I have no reason to want to go fast. However if I need to or I want to, I can now.

Same with pivoting turns. Just because I can doesn’t mean I have to, but if ever I have to, now I can.

In total honesty, it’s 99% about (A) above.

I like it … and it’s fun.
(which is the only reason I ever go paddling at all. )

[Shadepine]

@szihn

Well I could not disagree with anything you wrote. But my reason to do what I do is
(A) It’s fun
and (B) it’s good training.

I agree 100% with that! Nothing wrong with fun and learning new techniques!

As for edge turning…the Tsunamis have rudders, so there’s no real need to edge turn. I can do it in my 165, though these are such big boats it’s not very responsive when up on edge. And the 175 I struggle to even get up on edge, LOL. (But I need to improve my outfitting in that one.)

And some boats, like my Eddyline Raven, will turn like crazy with just a slight lean—you don’t need to get the cockpit rim anywhere close to the water to edge turn it. It’s really great, like “power steering” with a bit of lean.

[Jyak]

Steve, I’m still a bit confused about the ibsesion with turning and agree with Shadepine. The concepts that I follow for kayaking is to control the balance because any leaning cause the boat to change direction. The paddle is primary used to propel the boat. Avoid reverse strokes once you’re underway, because it negates forward progress (that doesn’t apply when stopped, since you haven’t used any energy to moved the boat; when stoped, the easiest way to turn is to alternate between reverse and foward strokes). Don’t overpower the blade to cause slippage because it wastes energy. Always maintain cadence to stay on glide because accelerating uses more energy (within the one second between power strokes, your boat can lose .2 mph from drag, which as to be made up by the next stroke. My performance os predictable enoughI that I can estimate and predict my avg speed for the trip within the first quarter mile and typically hit it within .1 mph. On the last trip, I was able to peg and mantain the speed at 4.71 mph for 6 - 8 minutes going both with and into conditions. I not only watched the speed on the deck mounted GPS but confirmed it after I stopped and studied the phone app.

You’ll find that turning is more responsive if you maintain speed without rocking and hold the edge. For a tighter turn, I hold the edge and will paddle on one side, because it faster to turn and you have to reverse direction. As I pointed out, your deck is 13 inches and mine is 16, so I can lean much further. Additionally, my width of 24.5 inches compared to your 21 inches creates a much greater curve. By riding on the curved side of the hull, the temporary condition acts as if the boat has more rocker, augments the turn. On paper, the Tsunami is written off as a pig, but paddlers like Craic_S, Shadepine, and myself learned how to squeeze a bit more performance and agility out of the boat.

I’ve never really paid attention to the turning radius of either the 145 or 175, but the next time I paddle, I can enlarge the segment of the turn and get a screen shot. I can’t actually tell you the turning radius, but turning and edging have never been a problem.

While looking for turn details, I came across a series of pictures. Typical winds are SE 10-15 mpg, gusting 20. This set is N 15-25. You can see the disruption to my track. Red arrows are 30 minute water stops at 2.1 mile intervals. White arrows referenced in log notes.

Despite higher than normal waves, this is the extent of water in the hull.

This is the best turn picture I could find. My goal is to turn within the jetty at the top of the picture. Although it wasn’t intended to measure a shart turn, i believe its about as tight a turn as it would make through edging alone. +/- 120 feet. That could be the 175, but it’s more likely the orange 145 because I was examining the tracking to assess handling after I moved the seat rearward by 42 mm which made the boat unmanageable over 6.4 mph on waves from behind.

[willowleaf]

“But I’m guessing the top reason for “same model, different length” is different-sized paddlers.”

Not really, though it may be a simplistic way for dealers to market them to new customers. it’s volume, not length. I’m 5’ 5" (but long-legged and short-waisted, so my upper body is more like a 5’ 2" woman) and weigh 150. One of my favorite kayaks is 17’ 5". Others in the fleet that perform similarly well for me are 15’ and 16’ respectively. I have another that’s 17’ 11" that is designed as an open water kayak with cargo capacity for people my size as well (it was retired from a touring outfitter’s fleet that operates in the San Juan Strait. My shortest seaworthy kayak is 13’ 5". That’s a 4’ 6" length range. All are different brands and models but all have similar basic design – low decked, narrow (20" to 22" beam) , vee hull, hard chines with a Greenland profile (meaning a long raised pointy bow that helps breach waves. – this shortens the actual water line). The main performance difference is that the longer kayaks are faster for the same paddling effort.

Plenty of big guys over 200 pounds and 6’ tall who are out there in 12’ and 14’ kayaks, even 10’ ones. But those boats are extra wide and deep (and therefore stable but slow).

Back to the notion that “same model, smaller people need a shorter one”: when the big rage for kayaking began 15-20 years ago, a lot of women in couples got shortchanged when sellers talked them into getting a boat 2’ shorter than their hubby/boyfriend when they shopped together, only to find on the water that they had to knock themselves out to keep up with him on the water. We’ve heard more than one report on these forums of the wife/GF getting a chance to paddle their guy’s longer kayak and then refusing to give it back because it was faster.

More of the mid to high end makers create kayaks within a model that are scaled to different sized paddlers by adding “LV” and “HV” versions (low volume and high volume) to the standard model while maintaining the same length. My P & H Easky 15LV is nearly identical to the standard Easky 15 that my boyfriend at the time bought but it was an inch wider and had a deeper hull, and you could set the foot braces for a longer inseam.

[CapeFear]

This conversation about how much value developed maneuvering skills do or don’t have in a sea kayak brought a recent funny memory to mind. I can’t remember how it came up, but I said in a very light-hearted, big-picture, humorous kind of way that sea kayaks don’t travel sideways very well. I was speaking very base level, with my thinking being something like this: We line our bodies up to a starting line like a race, me with my sea kayak parallel along the starting line, and you with your sea kayak perpendicular across the line. As in any race, our goal is to move in a perpendicular direction away from the line. Say go. We can take as few or as many, as light or as hard of strokes as you like. Sea kayaks don’t travel sideways very well. The idea of my keeping up with you trying to move my sea kayak sideways while you get to paddle yours straight forward is quite laughable. But all I actually said out loud was that sea kayaks don’t travel sideways very well.
Someone proceeds to tell me that I’m wrong. With the right technique, sea kayaks move sideways quite well. And goes on to explain some. I responded with enthusiasm, acknowledged the points made, and let it go.

I appreciate both perspectives in the value of sea kayak maneuvering. On one hand, every time I’ve had the very infrequent reason to jump into and paddle a sea kayak without a skirt, I very quickly end up dropping edges too far and taking on water without a thought. Once you develop the skills to comfortably and thoughtlessly edge kayaks, it becomes innate very quickly. Turns are initiated with and helped by an edge, and it feels weird not to do it. On the other hand, I have a strong appreciation for straight tracking kayaks, and it’s hard for me to understand how much efficiency some people seemingly give up over avoiding any frustration making a few turns over several hours of paddling. So I can get onboard with questioning how much maneuverability really makes much of a difference in my day’s paddle.
I think overall, I look at sea kayak maneuvering skills as a significant competency in the art of seamanship. If I look at it through the lens of seamanship, all of the little things matter. My ability to make a crossing as quickly as possible counts. My ability to maneuver more assertively and with more precision, even if it’s an infrequent need, also matters.
And I also agree that developing maneuvering skills in sea kayaks is fun. I really enjoy it, even in the hard-tracking boats. I find that I feel challenged as opposed to frustrated when maneuvering sea kayaks, even - and sometimes especially - in the straight tracking hulls.
On the subject of making a hull perform the same in different sizes for different sized people, I think that’s reasonably possible. Making a hull feel the same is probably impossible to quantify. I let an experienced kayaker use my same model kayak as they owned for the weekend, only their’s was fiberglass and mine was carbon kevlar. They liked their fiberglass model, but didn’t like the carbon kevlar version. I would argue that you would get nearly the same performance out of either, probably a bit better out of the lighter carbon kevlar. Better as in some very small degree of measurable acceleration, quickness of maneuvering, given the same force. I would also argue that because of the sense of a different feel, you would never get the person to admit that the two kayaks actually had almost identical characteristics and overall capabilities. We seem to be super-sensitive when it comes to paddlecraft.

[Shadepine]

Great thoughts @CapeFear …

On the other hand, I have a strong appreciation for straight tracking kayaks, and it’s hard for me to understand how much efficiency some people seemingly give up over avoiding any frustration making a few turns over several hours of paddling.

Yes, this! ^^^

On the topic of edging…I had a hunch that this is a “turn assist” technique developed entirely by modern white kayakers (and potentially adopted from whitewater paddling technique), and has nothing to do with traditional Greenland paddling. I’ve never once seen a video clip of a native Greenlander edging their kayak through a turn.

For the heck of it, I ordered ChatGPT to do some deep research on edging and Greenland paddling, and here’s what it said:

• Looked for Greenlandic technique descriptions curated by Qajaq USA (the best online clearinghouse of John Heath’s work and related materials). These emphasize rolling vocabularies and stroke mechanics, not edging to turn. qajaqusa.org+1
• Searched for named turning methods in Greenland-style instruction. What I found highlights canted-blade forward stroke and extended-paddle sweeps (often for turning), again without prescribing hull-edging as the method. qajaqusa.org+1
• Cross-checked broader histories and museum/educational summaries (Smithsonian, etc.). They describe qajaq origins, construction, hunting use, and agility but do not document edging-to-turn as a distinct traditional technique. Smithsonian Ocean
• Compared with modern sea-kayak instruction, where “edging”/“leaning” is explicitly taught. That explicit framing appears in recent skills articles and videos—i.e., modern pedagogy—rather than in historical Greenlandic notes. Paddling.com

The only reason I did all this is because sea kayakers tend to…

• Make a big deal about edging to turn
• Make a big deal about Greenland paddling techniques

…so I find it interesting that there appears to be no documented connection between the two. I’m guessing your average Greenland hunter 150 years ago wouldn’t want to lay in frigid water on a low brace unless they really had to (or even dip their cockpit under water). They probably turned using turning strokes!

Years ago as a whitewater slalom C-1 racer, I had to learn how to almost subconsciously edge all the time. Because a slalom C-1 weighs about 22lbs (light enough to lift and carry with one finger!). Their turning performance is off the charts…which means that if you take even a baby stroke on one side of the boat, the boat instantly starts spinning in the opposite direction, LOL. So to counteract this, you learn to lean toward the opposite side that you’re paddling on. This partially buries the opposite edge underwater, which helps keep the boat from spinning as you paddle.

[CapeFear]

That’s interesting research. Perhaps someone with significant traditional kayaking knowledge will have a response.
From my perspective, you’re seeking to uncover some academic evidence for something I have significant experience with in practice and know to be true. It’s not theoretical for me. I use edging to maneuver more effectively. But I’m still interested in almost any aspect of the history of sea kayaking.

[Shadepine]

@CapeFear

From my perspective, you’re seeking to uncover some academic evidence for something I have significant experience with in practice and know to be true. It’s not theoretical for me. I use edging to maneuver more effectively. But I’m still interested in almost any aspect of the history of sea kayaking.

Oh I don’t doubt your experience with edging. I do it too in my Eddyline Raven, which turns quickly with even a slight lean. My Wilderness Systems boats (even the Tempest 170) are not nearly as sensitive to leans. And I have nothing against leans for turning at all…I just think some people (not saying you do this) use leans as a substitute for strong sweeps and draws, which can be just as effective (and more effective in swift currents).

[eckilson]

@Shadepine

Years ago as a whitewater slalom C-1 racer, I had to learn how to almost subconsciously edge all the time. Because a slalom C-1 weighs about 22lbs (light enough to lift and carry with one finger!). Their turning performance is off the charts…which means that if you take even a baby stroke on one side of the boat, the boat instantly starts spinning in the opposite direction, LOL. So to counteract this, you learn to lean toward the opposite side that you’re paddling on. This partially buries the opposite edge underwater, which helps keep the boat from spinning as you paddle.

What you are describing is how I paddle my sea kayak - it turns much better when edged to the outside of the turn. I would never paddle my whitewater OC-1 that way. Carving into or out of an eddy, or even carving to paddle a straighter line is always done with the boat leaned (edged) into the turn. Going into or out of an eddy on the outside edge would not end well. I do have an old Cascade C-1 that I paddle the same way. Can’t say that I have ever paddled a whitewater slalom C-1 racer

[eckilson]

@Shadepine

I just think some people (not saying you do this) use leans as a substitute for strong sweeps and draws, which can be just as effective (and more effective in swift currents).

Actually, boat leans (or edging) is even more important when you are going into and out of currents. Whitewater paddlers are good at it. My general impression from my limited experience is that sea kayakers tend to have a little more trouble with currents - maybe because they are used to those outside edge turns.

[Shadepine]

@eckilson

What you are describing is how I paddle my sea kayak - it turns much better when edged to the outside of the turn. I would never paddle my whitewater OC-1 that way. Carving into or out of an eddy, or even carving to paddle a straighter line is always done with the boat leaned (edged) into the turn. Going into or out of an eddy on the outside edge would not end well. I do have an old Cascade C-1 that I paddle the same way. Can’t say that I have ever paddled a whitewater slalom C-1 racer

Yep, a whitewater slalom C-1 is a whole different beast…check out the side view of a typical slalom C-1:

With sharp edges like that, in slalom racing you actually want to drop the outside edge in eddy turns—because it sinks the stern of the boat, allowing you to slip under the bottoms of the slalom gates (which are only 6" above the water) and pivot the boat around the gate fast. It’s fun! (But takes a long time to learn.)

[rstevens15]

If you enjoy exploring twisting creeks or paddling rivers with occasional rocks or other obstructions, then edging the boat is the best way to make sharp turns while minimizing loss of speed.

Not everyone enjoys cruising down the middle of big open water all the time where wide, lazy turns work just fine.

[Jyak]

Two very good follow up threads. @willowleaf pointed out the almost comical assertion that little women need little boats. Objectively, the primary purpose of a boat is that it floats; every other feature of the design is subjective, in that it basically influences seaworthiness, handling, comfort, stability, or load carrying characteristics. Ironically, the first question you might ask isn’t whether the kayak is tippy enough, yet so many discussions insist that the owner needs to get used to the instability. That’s reverse logic - if the goal is specific handling characteristics, instability might instead be considered a consequence the design rather than a desirable feature. My point being that the buyer should look for the boat that fills the requirements. The advantage of learning skills such as rolling, advanced paddling techniques, and the ability to enhance tracking and turning through edging is a plus, especially for the experience kayaker who demands precise control. If your only concern is floating to look at ducks, all you really need to be concerned with is displacement.

The first and minimum requirement is that the boat is buoyant, because it has to support the weight of the occupant, passengers or load, and it has to be effective in the conditions it was designed to operate in, no more no less. You can’t ignore the environment or you’ll be disappointed. The weight class of a kayak is a safety guide around which the designer shaped the performance characteristics. So the buyer has to consider how the kayak will be used. While freeboard improves seaworthiness (reduces water splashing into the boat from high seas), any amount of boat above the water will catch wind. The main difference between a kayak and a canoe of the same length is a closed deck vs. open deck, then the typical canoe will be wider with greater load capacity. Otherwise, they’re both still displacement boats.

There is no one style fits all, or one design that handles all conditions. If your pleasure is tackling conditions that require nimbleness, you’ll seek rockered boats; your physical dimensions of weight, height, girth or shoe size mandates certain design parameters. A slightly built person can adapt to a large boat better than a large person can fits a small boat, but that doesn’t mean that either extreme will perform optimally or safely.

A recurring topic ponders the reason why interest in sea kayaking or kayaking in general is waning. I personally witnesses a proliferation of rec kayaks, then sea kayaks. At the peak, rental businesses offered a wide range of recreation, touring and sea kayaks. In the past few years, their stock has morphed to all sit-on-top varietys, and more recently, the shift has been to stock more Stand Up Paddle Boards. More anglers who previously adapted to a typical kayak have upgraded to dedicated fishing kayaks, because they have fittings for tackle and are more stable. The interest in water activity hasn’t changed as much as the style of watercraft. When I ask paddlers about the craft of choice, a recurring theme is a preference for a more stable boat and the feared of being trapped in a tippy kayak with a tight cockpit. I wonder what message the average person would carry away, after reading advice from the forum.

The predominate design feature hinges on displacement. A 145 lb paddler needs a kayak designed to carry that weight, as does a 245 lb person. Buoyancy requires a specific area that displaces “X” amount of water. While there are exceptions, based on my experience with the Tsunami line, my 13 yr old, 90 lb grand daughter graduated from a 10’ x 23" Perception Prodigy to a 120 Tsunami SP, 12’ x 21" x 12" deck, which offers the freeboard to handle some relatively rough condition and still remain dry. In that boat, she can paddle 7 miles at 3.11 mph avg speed. Anything larger and she probably wouldn’t have the physical strength to handle the length. However, the 21" width is more than stable for her weight, size and reach. Her sister has been using the 140 Tsunami (24" wide model), for the past 2 yrs and has no problems controlling the size. I don’t have specific speed data for her, but she is approaching 4 mph avg over 7 mile distances with no complaints or stops.

The latitude for the 140 Tsunami is about 120 lbs through 180 lbs. Outside of that range, the consensus of members of my family who tried it feel it’s either too hard to control or unstable, while the 145 lb paddler seeming to be the sweet spot. The proper displacement point for me at 235 lbs is a kayak that’s 17’6" x 24" wide (which offers at least 45 lbs extra load, compared to a 65 lb surplus for a 145 lb paddler in the 140, and a 54 lb surplus for a 90 lb paddler in the 12 ft kayak.). Based on feedback from my sister and grandaughters, the handling characteristics are similar across the models. I can attest to the relative performance capability of paddlers using the 12 ft, 14 ft, 14’6" and 17’6" Tsunamis, because each boat performs similarly except for speed, with the longer kayak being fastest. The avg speed bracket between 3.11 mph for a 13 yr old in a 12 ft, 4.4 mph for my sister in a 14 ft, to 5 mph for my personal avg in a 17’6" can be explained due to hull speed limit and physical ability.

One problem with comparing low volume to high volume in the same model is a matter of dispacement, proportion, balance and hull speed. No matter the design, a heavier paddler needs a larger boat which add a twist to the equation. The difference between the high recorded average speed by the named paddlers in the three boats tested is listed below:

12 ft=5.4 mph hull spd; 3.11 mph is 2.3 below hull spd
14 ft=5.8 mph hull spd; 4.4 mph is 1.4 below hull spd
17 ft=6.4 mph hull spd; 5.03 mph is 1.4 below hull spd*

*note: The best average speed using the 145 Tunami, from two year ago, was 4.84 mph, which is 1.06 mph under the 5.9 mph hull speed, which suggest it may be comparitvelly faster for the length, and I get that impression when paddling it.

While the method of calculating hull speed can be argued (the dimensions used to calculat hull lenth is the overall length vs. length on the load water line), yet the implication of this raw data is interesting. My grand daughter’s avg speed is 1.89 mph slower than my average speed, but realize that the 12 ft hull speed is a full mph slower than the 175 Tsunami. After factoring in hull speed penalties, for what it’s worth, she is only .4 mph behind my sister, and .89 mph behind me. Also, when considering that hull length favors speed, my sister isn’t far behind me when she is similarly conditioned; her best speeds nearly match my output if the limitations of the hull speed is factored in.

There it is @willowleaf! There are many variables that aren’t contolled, but I believe you are correct in thinking women (perhap even those within a wide age range) can be just as capable if properly fitted in a proper boat (if you didn’t imply that, I will). @szihn and I discussed that topic and independently arrived at a similar conclusion.

Another question that comes to mind is what part drag plays in the equation, because the difference in displacement can’t be factored out, even if every other design parameter is followed:

120 Tsunami SP: 90 lbs/40 lbs = 130 lbs (---- gals)
140 Tsunami: 145 lbs/57 lbs = 202 lbs (8.6 gals)
175 Tsunami: 235 lbs/69 lbs = 304 lbs (20.9.gals)*

Combining the weight of paddler/boat, using the SP as the baseline, the difference in displacement is shown in gallons. Nothing in the design that I can think of can compensate for that increased drag. My point isn’t to show any scientific conclusion, but this is the first time I did a cross comparison between the different boats. It made me think, calculate, and realize that the people I paddle with are far stronger paddlers than I realized. Or does it show any advantages due to specific hull dimensions or ratios. As a finishing thought, I can out sprint both of them, but their average speed is competitive with mine when you consider the limiting factors of the hull length and width.

I expressed disapointment with the WS decision to increase the width of both the 140 (24" to 25.5") and the 145 (24.5 to 25.5). The previous design made sense, but now they only offer a 145 model and a second model that’s 6 inches shorter. The real problem for a person who is smaller in stature is excessive width. A more rational decision may have been to offer a 14.0’ x 23.5" version, because I think it would have been just as stable as the other models and proportionally faster. We’ll never know.

[Jyak]

The primary advantage I find in edging is that you can sustain speed in the turn, compared to using a rudder or paddle strokes. The differnce between the techniques is measurable when using a GPS, and the difference is significsnt enough to discount the possibility that the reading is spurious.

The critical part of a proper edge is consistency of the edge, and maintaining the speed through the turn. For me, that means keeping up speed without disrupting the lean angle. Interrupting the smooth flow around the bulge at the gunnel won’t stop the turn, but it degrades the efficiency.

Edging works for me, because I don’t place a high emphasis on turning. A faster method is to use technical strokes like the one describe above that starts in the front, rudder strokes, sweeps, or reverse strokes or whatever suits your fancy. The only reason I don’t employ paddle turns is that most have some negative impact on forward momentum. My goal is efficiency and maintaining glide.

[Shadepine]

Great comments as usual @jyak.

Regarding edging versus using turning strokes…I’m not sure I’d agree edging is the best way to turn without losing speed. I think this is true if your goal is to do a very-large-radius, long turn over time (and you’re comfortable leaning that whole time).

Based on my experience as a former slalom racer, I’ll stick my neck out and say that planting a good closed-angle draw (blade almost parallel to the boat, open slightly) as far forward as you can reach (keeping the blade near the bow of the boat) is much faster if your goal is to do a sharp turn quickly. And you’ll turn even faster still if you precede that draw with a good strong forward sweep on the opposite side. This is standard slalom racing technique.

In whitewater paddling (and definitely in sea kayaking) I see people do turning strokes all the time…but they do them right next to the cockpit which makes them very inefficient. And there’s a good reason for this: steering with your paddle from the bow of the boat (or as near to the bow as you can reach) is hard! It puts a lot of torque on your arms and shoulders (especially at higher speeds) and gets tiring fast (unless you’ve built up the arm strength to do it all the time). Most paddlers either just don’t have the strength to do that…or they just don’t want to (because it’s more comfortable to do them next to the cockpit, LOL).

But I promise you, in any boat (canoes as well as kayaks) if you always keep the mantra “Steer from the bow” in your head and get your turning strokes as far forward as you can lean and reach, they’ll have exponentially greater turning leverage than if you’re doing them right by your side. This was hammered into me as a beginning slalom racer by more experienced racers.

PS - I could talk about strokes all day, LOL. But I wanted to add that a draw stroke used for turning might better be described as a “stationary draw” or a “bow rudder.” This is completely different than the draw stroke used to move the kayak sideways through the water, which you almost never really need to do.

In addition to steering from the bow, all turning strokes are far more powerful if you’re moving fast through the water. I can’t say how many times I’ve seen kayakers or canoeists barely moving in the water do a turning stroke…and not much happens. Then they get frustrated and think “This stroke doesn’t work.” That’s because paddling strokes are like an airplane’s control surfaces or a bicycle—you have to be moving fast for them to work well!

[rstevens15]

In an 18’ boat with no rocker edging will simulate a rockered boat enabling a quicker turn than a bow or stern rudder alone.

[Jyak]

I agree whole with the beginning and end, but know little about the middle part that you discuss, yet it makes sense.

Somewhere above I mentioned that paddle stroke are faster. I direct messaged Steve, rather than tie up the tread, to explain that I often nudge into a jetty at the turn around point to stabilize the boat. Then i tirn from a full stop, because yhe GPS keeps running if the device detects any motion. Consequently, it registers a moving speed of .1 mph rather than stopped time. I should have made it clear that my goal is alway efficiency and registering the highest speed average, i
Especially when running the test circuit, so I can compare boats, paddles and techniques under different conditions.

On open water, 180° turns probably carve a 120 ft radius, for the sole pupose of keeping up speed. That is definetly not a race strategy. I’m just explaining it for like minded paddlers even if the interested numbers here are few. My turn are so few and shallow, there is little need for refined technique outside smooth execution.

I regret that I didn’t get out to test the new paddle beyond the initial trip. Im shocked that it started.off the new season .5 to .6 mph over the past three starts. That may seem substantial, but it’s statistically significant to me. I adhere to what I learn through trial and error, rather than what I read or what someone tells me. I make an exception with three members of the forum, because I respect the data and stats they post.

[Jyak]

A direct message communication with Steve illustrated his failure to grasp my explanation about edging. Here is a comparison between Steve’s boat, specs off line rate his boat for a max load capacity of 400 to 450 lbs, can be compared to a stock picture of a 175 Tsunami rated for a max capacity of 400 lbs. You can see the difference in freeboard, which is why I can hold an edge that Steve couldn’t even start. Features of a specific boat won’t make it better for every condition.

The primary difference is the symmetric hull and 24 inch width. That means there’s a 12 in bulge at the gunnel , startng from zero at the stem and stern, then peaking at 7 or 8.5 feet in the middle of the boat. While Steve’s fathom is tall, but only has a 22 inch beam and a 13.5 inch deck, compared to the Tsunami 15.75. The Loon is probsbly wider with a similar deck or as tall as 17 inches, depending on 12’ or 12’6" version.

So the symmetry, freeboard and width are positive factors in favor off the edge for turning. I also responds well to edging for keep it on track. I can’t translate the edging to others kayaks, and that wasn’t my intention. The information was intended for paddlers in similar boats.

[Jyak]

These were boats posted by Steve.

This is a stock photo if a 175 Tsunami.