Can an Oru beat a Pungo in a race?

[Jyak]

I understand that you were comparing the 12 ft models, which is why I posted those specfications, as well as specifications on a 16 ft Oru model. Your personal experience with the Oru definitively summed up the difference between the two boats. Based on your experience, I figured you also either paddled a Pungo, paddle with someone with a Pungo, or surely assessed the parameters and formed an educated opinion.

However, there are times that seem ordered for an illustration, and this appeared to be as good an opportunity as any. I noticed a number of first time posts asking for kayak recommendations. No better time to discuss the qualities of specific kayaks than when a post queries the speed and suitability of two vastly different boats.

When I post information, I try to present it from a novice perspective. My reply was largely directed in solidarity with String’s comment about the 140 Tsunami. String appears to be the most experience of the Pungo drivers who post details about the 140 Pungo, which is why I took the time to compare the standard roto-molded version and the Duralite model. I hope that my comparison can preempt a question about whether a Duralite Pungo is any good. The answer is unequivocably yes. Literature from the model year alternately list it as 39 or 43 lbs, which is about 10 lbs lighter than the standard model and about $200 more expensive. I’ll repeat that I would never sell mine, because they are no longer available and are far more enjoyable (possibly faster) and far easier to carry than the standard model. The stability makes it a perfect boat for guest paddlers. Now I like speed more than most, but I don’t mind slowing down to keep water out of the boat. This picture that I posted previously of my grand daughter in a 12 ft x 21 inch wide 120 Tsunami SP, also has her mother in the background paddling my yellow 140 Pungo Duralite kayak (those kayaks have a 12 and 13 inch deck, respectively).

I really do understand why spray skirts are recommended and why peolple use them. The Pungo cockpit is rather large, as you pointed out. The 120 Tsunami SP is suitable for a spray skirt. However, I have taken my daughter and grand daughters out in the kayaks, exploring incrementally further on each trip, and further into open water under increasingly challenging conditions. On that trip, they both did fairly well. None ofbour boats returned with more than a sponge bath mop up, which was mostly water dripping off the paddles. That is hardly flat water, but neither is it challenging conditions for either of our three kayaks (I was in the 145 Tsunami). We all had PFDs, the water was in the 80° range, and you can see by the pictures, the GPS track, and the direction of the wind and waves, as well as proximity to land, that if anyone capsized, we would be blown to the shore. Those concerns are simply a part of route planning and “navigation”. To put the issue about my not using a spray skirt in perspective, I view that as challenge to my competence and judgement; it categorizes me as a clueless rube. If I ever took unmanageable water into the boat, I wouldn’t need casual observers telling me to get the spray skirt out. However, forum members issue edicts about what other kayakers should dobas an imperative. For some reason, the canoe class on the forum doesn’t seem to do that, and rather offer advice on what works for them. I understand, spray skirts keep water out of boats even if I don’t get much water in my kayak. So I don’t use one, nor do I own a dry suit, or paddle in cold water. I have a stable boat, because I what to remain afloat, not because I’m afraid to roll. I didn’t but a submarine. I have a 240 cm Kalliste but use a 250 cm version and ordered a 260 cm model. I already know that a padfle that long doesn’t make sense, and it’ll make my kayak waddle like a duck. I accept that. The Kallistes are still only $470.

As much as I prefer going fast, here is no imperative that I make full speed at all time. If forecast post small craft advisories, I take the 175 Tsunami. In the 175, I only have to drop speed when winds are over 15 mph gusting to 30 mph. Then when I say I drop speed if water washes over the deck, its a matter of going from 4.8 mph to 4.2 mph. In the 145, it’s a matter of dropping from 4.2 to 3.8 mph. That speed drop prevents the bow from flying off the wave peaks and plunging in the trough. Now guys like Sing do that all the time, but I’m just not that adventurous.

You can wear your spray skirt, I don’t mind, but I don’t go out when conditions get too troublesome - it’s too much like work. An advantage of the Tsunami design is the tall deck of 15.75 inches, high freeboard, the solid primary stability, and the symmetric hull which rides the waves and keeps the cockpit dry. A disadvantage is the high freeboard and deck catches the wind, the wider beam will easily fly off the wave peaks rather than punch through the way Steve’s 17 ft x 21 inch Chatham will cut through, and the favorable primary stability will become detrimental as the waves evolve into a curl. Unless you paddle these boats, or the area where I paddle, you really don’t understand how the boats will perform. I’m a fair weather paddler and don’t go out on the water when the conditions don’t suit the limitations of my boats.

There are times that seem well ordered for an illustration, and this appeared to be as good a thread as any, because I noticed a number of recent first time posts about kayak recommendations. No better time to discuss the qualities of specific kayaks than when a person asks about the speed and suitability of two vastly different boats. I agree with your comment about the weight of the Pungo kayaks. Although I have not paddled other Pungo models beyond testing, I have paddled with others using the entire spectrum of models, and I have helped load them. My niece owns a more recent model of the standard 140 and a 120 Pungo, and her brother bought a 125 for his wife the first year that model was offered. We have paddle together on a few occasions.

I simply wanted to add a caveat to your comment about the effort required to paddle the Pungo. Since I have no paddle time in the roto-molded Pungo, I only wanted to point out that the 140 Pungo Duralite is only about .5 mph slower, if that, than the 145 Tsunami.

[mjac]

I have found that most making videos on You Tube are less about knowing what they are talking about and more about trying to become famous.

[willowleaf]

"To put the issue about my not using a spray skirt in perspective, I view that as challenge to my competence and judgement; it categorizes me as a clueless rube. If I ever took unmanageable water into the boat, I wouldn’t need casual observers telling me to get the spray skirt out. However, forum members issue edicts about what other kayakers should do as an imperative. "

I was careful not to “issue edicts”. Nor intend to “categorize” you. I know you’re very experienced and share useful information. I am just honestly curious why sprayskirt use is so rare, especially in textured and open water. And you did explain your perspective as apropos to your chosen waters and activities in them, which added insight.

My perspective is that I view a skirt as simple tool that enables me to paddle lower volume kayaks that are faster and lighter as well as less vulnerable to wind and broaching, also easier to paddle with less effort and for performing self rescue and rescue assist with due to the low stern decks. Easier to avoid a capsize with bracing with a skirt when gallons of water are NOT flooding into a cockpit when edging, and much more pleasant to not have a lap full of water in general. Prevents sunburn when wearing shorts as well, also keeps stuff stashed in the cockpit reasonably dry and contained.

I admit my own reasons would not necessarily be shared experience with a lot of paddlers. I use a GP most of the time, for one thing, and those ship way more water into the cockpit than does a standard blade. And, as noted, my Greenland style low skinny boats ride closer to the water and would scoop it in a leaned turn. And sometimes I paddle in cold water (the dry suit is also a tool for that) and in good sized waves – warmer with a skirt on. Also started kayaking in whitewater, so there’s that habit.

[Jyak]

Again, remember that I address the general audience, and not you specifically. So my comments would be unfair if interpreted that you are questioning my judgement. The problem with forums is trying to keep the replies brief. That often leads to partial info.

Sooner or later, we may attribute everything in the general topic to a specific person. That isnt my intention. As I reply, I expect an challenge from another person. That often leads mevto be more brusk than I intended. To be clear, i wasnt offended by your comments. In fact, I thought you hit the nail on the head about the two boats.

I know that String admires the 140 Pungo. Since I have no idea what model year or configuration, I dropped information about the qualities of the Duralite. In case he was looking a lighter model which is only available on the used market. While at the same time, maybe a new member looking for a boat option might see my comments about the conditions the Pungo can handle. Then I explained how the Pungo compared to the the Tsunami line, fronm the 120 Tsunami SP through the 175 Tsunami. I own them all, except for the 165 (which I would to test paddle) and the fiberglass or composite models.

I realize that many members don’t like unsolicited info, but the answer to that is ignore the post. My experience on the forum is that I often get just as much from the peripheral comments than the OP topic.

Don’t be offended by my comments and dont hesitate to simply say, “That’s rude of you to say . . .”

I try to remain neutral about spray skirts. I briefly used the Greenland Paddle that I made and experienced the same issue woth water drip, even though I paddle a very low angle (maybe chords coukd be wrapped to serve as drip stops, but then that could affect the advantage of sliding the paddle freely. When I get challenges about the spray skirt, my mind goes automatically to the probability that the logic relates to the person in a svelt Gucci boat with upswept bow and stern zipping through, rather than over the wave peaks. A sleek 21 inch wide kayak with a 12 inch deck doesnt ride over waves, it cuts through them. I don’t have special skills. I just bob through them. When I edge my kayak, I still have 5 inches of freeboard. To tell you plainly, I’m not sure why you guys turn so much. I make about five 90° turns and worry more about going straight than turning.

When the conversation cane up about pumps, I also own a pump, which I got tire of carrying, because I never got enough water in the boat to use it. I almost bought a faster boat, until I realized it would get more water in it and I’d need to change my lifestyle. I’m too set in my ways, and the Tsunamis are far too forgiving to give them up at this stage of the game. I’m a one-trick-pony. I just paddle to go someplace fast and then turn around. No special skill needed. If I wanted adventure, I’d buy a surplus Mig-29.

[mjac]

[Jyak]

Chiprat won by getting the answer to the post.

[castoff]

@Jyak

A sleek 21 inch wide kayak with a 12 inch deck doesnt ride over waves, it cuts through them. I don’t have special skills. I just bob through them.

You mean like this? They do ride up over even larger waves, but the white water does go over the deck. I like my skirt even when not in the surf for many of the reasons stated but really don’t think it is always required. I just don’t like getting caught with my skirt down.

[mjac]

This is when I wear my skirt. It is amazing under the pounding water, then you got Rainbows, could spend all day there…

[Jyak]

That’s what I’m talking about. What is your boat, about 17 ft and around 21 inches wide. It does fly. My area of the bay doesn’t get those gnarly curling waves. I’m not good at judging waves, but the ones in the last picture are more typical. They get white caps but not that foam. The big waves typically roll up from the ocean and build power in the deeper water channel from the south and compress when they hit the shallow delta at the mouth of the Gunpowder River. They well up more than break.

[castoff]

It’s 17’ 4" and 21 1/2" wide hard chine.

[string]

Back when I was attempting to surf I enjoyed punching out through waves in my sea kayak and surf skis. Coming back in was a different story. Had I been near surf except one week a year, that would have improved.

[castoff]

I do like popping over the waves. The skill is in riding them.

[Jyak]

You can power through them in your boat, but the Tsunami at 24 inches takes a hit, which is why I have to slow down. I’m not partial to wind and waves. I paddle them because that’s the typical weather. My preference is moderate wind around 8 to 12 mph because it doesn’t impact paddling much. Between 15 and 20 mph, it’s starting to get too much like work. I draw the line when gusts hit 30 mph. Like I said, fair weather paddler.

[Jyak]

Since waves come in intervals, I anticipate the big ones by watching the GPS. When a series looks promising, I try to catch a top speed, but riding waves is hard work. I’d rather cover more distance.

[RedMC]

@castoff

Then there was a comparison of the tandem inflatables to the singles based on two people with only one paddling which was (to be kind) misguided.

That made no sense to me either.

Nonetheless, the comparisons between singles helped reinforce my preconceived opinion that the Oru would be slower. I’ve never paddled an Oru, but I’ve read in multiple places that their faceted shape and flex gives them higher drag and less glide than a sea kayak of comparable dimensions. I’ve seen them at REI and they don’t look very streamlined in person. The quality looks poor too. I’d take a Pungo any day.

[Jyak]

The guy who made the video admitted it wasn’t scientific. But at least we had a chance to see the Oru in action. Even though neither boat was designed to be raced, the question about which is faster is a natural curiosity. After all, who wants to paddle harder but go slower. One of the limiting factors of owning a kayak is storage and transportation. Many of us store our boats in a location other than our home. I’m fortunate to own a truck, otherwise, paddling wouldn’t be in my cards.

While a folding boat may sound out of the question for many of us, I think about the alternatives that I considered as a kid to get out on the water. Would a washtub work, could an old bathtub float, how coukd a boat be fabricated using plywood . . .

When I think about it, an origami boat seems pretty practical. Especially if your goal isn’t racing and you just want the waves to rock you.

[willowleaf]

@Jyak

While a folding boat may sound out of the question for many of us

Why do you say that? They are hardly “unobtainium”. Nor out of reach cost-wise. I’ve owned 9 folders over the years – paid between $300 to $700 each for 5 of them. And since, unlike hardshell boats, they can be shipped cross-country or even overseas in a carton, they are pretty accessible.

[Jyak]

That is why I said that. You explained the value of a folding boat that many kayakers may not appreciiate. If you read the rest of my posts, you would realize how much I wanted to get out on the water but couldn’t.

As I pointed out elsewhere, transportation and storage is a big hurdle for many? to overcome. I don’t have room to store kayaks at my homes, so I detour before and after each trip to pick up the boat, which adds another 45 minutes to my trip. Fortunately, I own a truck to transport them.

In 2017, my 1995 vintage S10 breathed its last. I already owned a car and don’t put many miles on it, so a replacement truck was hard to rationalize. The only justification to invest in a truck was to drive my kayaks around. Six months passed before realizing a replacement was needed if I wanted to get back on the water.

At the time I bought the truck, I wasn’t familiar with folding kayaks. I read about them a few years later and finally saw one being assembled at the launch site and think they’re engineering marvels. However, I already own multiple kayaks, bought a new truck, and another ladder rack so I could continue transporting the 175 Tsunami.

For a person in an apartment, a folding kayak could be an entry point. Even with the low price and convenience of the folding kayak, it doesn’t offer the same advantages of a rigid shell kayak for durability and performance.

While it hard to resist the showroom beaulty of a svelt, shiny Gucci boat, most kayakers don’t have the resources, options, or ability to fit inside one. My minimum option is a 23" wide beam for my ampleness and a 15 inch deck for my fat feet. Some hard-core kayakers view such a boat as a barge - it is a barge, which is the primary reason I like it. Exploring the vast network of tributaries requires a kayak that’s durable, capable of handling open water, and reasonably fast. The folding boats don’t fit my standard; in fairness to folding boats, neither does the 125 and 140 Tsunami, nor does the 145 at times.

Everyone doesn’t want to battle waves like the ones that sing encounters or those in pictures posted by castoff. My lowly tub serves the purpose and handles the conditions that I encounter. I guess its like always wanting to try skydiving so you compromise and buy buy a trampoline. The challenge may not be the same as those encountered by castoff, but my limited wave handling skill make the experience of surviving the smaller set in his picture series just as exhilarating for me.

Kayaking is different things to different people. The most important thing is being on the water. How you get there and what you do once there is shaped by the boat. As avid kayakers, we should embrace and respect every form of paddled watercraft. You described some of the virtues of foldable kayaks. The OP started a valuable discussion.

[mjac]

[Jyak]

This is one of the foldable models I found while researching. Although expensive, it assembles more like a skin on frame kayak. It would be interesting to hear from an owner to rate performance.