Can an Oru beat a Pungo in a race?

[castoff]

You might want to do a search as Trak 2 has been discussed here before. My understanding is they perform well.

Feathercraft also had some high-performance folders. Folbot had some good performing kayaks. Both are out of business now. Klepper which started in 1906 before there was manufacture of any hardshell kayaks was the first to commercially produce a folding Kayak. Yes they are take-apart skin on frames.

I owned a Folbot Tandem called the Super. It had a rudder and sail kit and was an expedition kayak. It was fast with two paddlers. Here are some photos of it at Juniper Springs Run without the sail and rudder. It is a very versatile watercraft. I traded it as part of a deal I made when I bought the Scamp sailboat from a friend.

[Jyak]

Not personally interested in more kayaks. It popped up in advertisements after I did a search for the Oru. I included it to expand the list that Willowleaf posted. The literature appeared favorable, so it’s good to hear you’re comments. Some of the foldables look like a performance compromise, but that model looks promising.

[castoff]

She might not have mentioned them for several reasons. One being their suspect business model. Another the poor customer service in the past and large backlog with some not receiving answers to in some cases year long delays and multiple inquiries. Also needing to put the money up front without recourse to cancelling the order and getting their money back. They seem to be improving at this point in time. Another is I don’t think she owns one though she may have seen them in use. This of course is just speculation on my part.

I must admit I think their concept and boat design has merit and was interested in them, but lost that interest after observing their business model in action.

[willowleaf]

I’ve test paddled a Trak (that exact model) the first year it was released, when I encountered one of their “ambassadors” on a local waterway who had been sent to help an early purchaser with assembly and paddling his boat. The Trak is an extremely competent open water sea kayak, fast to assemble, and has a unique feature of having hydraulic jacks in the frame to change the hull rocker for performance purposes. I admit I was impressed, even though I have owned 4 equally costly high quality Feathercraft folders.

But as I followed the progress of the company a number of drawbacks to the Trak emerged. First off, the thing is beastly heavy. I started with folding kayaks when I got into touring models 23 years ago after dating a guy who had traveled with a tandem Klepper for years – I wanted to be able to take my boat with me when I explored the world. Every folder I have owned I have been able to pack and transport UNDER the airline’s maximum weight for “overweight baggage” as well as have it manageable myself once on land.

Back to the Trak: There have been issues with failures of the hydraulic systems. Biggest turnoff to me is the lack of consumer service. They started off the company with a kickstarter requiring very high “prepays” for anyone who wanted to buy the boats, in fact I think it was the full price of over $3000 up front. They took forever to actually ship them – I know people who waited more than 2 years for delivery and the company stated “no refunds” so those who ordered were trapped. They notoriously issued false shipping projections and left people frustrated and angry. I was a very active participant in the now defunct foldingkayaks.org folder forum and we saw many complaints on there. It was maddening to be on Trak’s marketing contact list and have them constantly showing up at trade shows and events with “new colors and designs” to try to tempt new orders when I knew people who were still waiting months or years for delivery. And they continued to require upfront non-refundable pre-payment with NO guarantees on delivery projections. I have heard they have changed their ways but admit I don’t trust them. If I was going to invest in a high performance sleek folder now I would be more likely to go to Nautiraid.

It was a huge loss to the folder community when Feathercraft closed up shop – you have to understand that ALL their boats were made, literally handcrafted, in a small shop on Grandville Island in Vancouver, British Columbia. They had an impressive suite of CNC machines for cutting and heat welding and fantastic customer service by a dedicated team. I visited them twice during travels there – on one visit they loaned me a demo Wisper (their 15’ Greenland low volume sea kayak) and one of their Klatwa 2-piece GP’s for the day and I launched from the seawall 50’ from their workshop into Vancouver Harbor to find I loved the boat – subsequently bought one that I still use. 37.5 pounds at 15’ 7" x 23" (specs below). I experienced great customer service from them with the 3 FC’s I owned while they were still in business (also owned a Kahuna and a K-1 Expedition). They were probably the most innovative of any of the folder makers until the recent expansion of models by the French builder, Nautiraid.

https://www.feathercraft.com/wisper-xp-1

But FC had some stumbles towards the end – just my opinions (based on some years of experience in the outdoor gear industry) – they began offering too many different models too quickly (there is a “confusion factor” with buyers of higher end sports gear that can cause paralysis when choices overwhelm), also selling direct as they did disincentivized dealers from stocking the boats. I lucked out in living near one of probably less than half dozen shops that actually had a FC in stock when I picked up my first FC from Outpost in Holland, MI. Their advertising was way too low key – in major paddling and outdoor adventure mags all there would be only an 1/8th page photo ad of several assembled models on a beach – pretty but no suggestion of how light and portable and unique of an option they offered. In the last couple of years before they shuttered they came up with a brilliant fully inflatable sea kayak, the Aironaut, but started having some technical issues despite high demand. Also I think the ultralight Kurrent models they developed around that time (the 13’ x 25" Kurrent was only 23 lbs) did not sell as well as expected.

The most budget-friendly competent folders currently available are the PakBoats, though they went from being a US based distributor owned by their inventor, Alv Elvestad, to being part of the Scandinavian mega company , ScanSport. Their broad range of folding Pakcanoes (similar to the European Ally canoes, which Alv helped design during his years with them) are favorites of many hunting and fishing guides for float plane expeditions to remote locations. I’ve owned 5 Pakboat kayaks but they have some issues too. I’m sure Alv was frustrated at Ally who has not changed their canoe designed for decades (I helped somebody with a 30 year old 19=8’ Ally found in an estate get parts for it 4 years ago) but his constant “innovation” and turnover of models at Pakboat left a lot of people twisting in the wind (myself included) when they needed parts for older boats. And production of them is all off shore, mostly in Asia. They had some recalls of defective material over the years. I missed one when I bought a pair of kayaks with defective inflatable sponsons from a couple who failed to get the replacements when they were offered. But Pakboat kayaks are mad light. My 12’ (and 21 year old) Puffin is 24 lbs and I can pack it and ALL the gear and clothing I need to paddle in a conventional rolling duffel under 48 pounds and within the airline dimensional standards. I’ve flown with it 4 times, including overseas, and paid no baggage fees, plus I can tow it through an airport and landside transport while wearing a back pack with the rest of my clothing and travel kit. Could stash it in my hotel room or cottage rental and carry it in the trunk of a rental car.

The now discontinued “smaller person” semi Greenland style Pakboat Quest 135 I bought in 2014 is nearly the equal in performance to my Wisper and a lot easier to assemble – plus is only 28 pounds . Even new it was 1/3 the price of the Wisper ($1100 vs $3300, though I bought a beta model demo for $700). Their present Quest 150 can be paddled with the deck as a closed boat or without it as an open hull sort of sit on top and is 31 and 26 pounds respectively in the two set ups. Also relatively easy to set up once you get the hang of it. Price is up to $1800 (don’t know if that reflects the impact of tariffs yet – Pakboat is slow to keep their flimsy website updated) but good luck finding a 15’ hardshell that light for twice the price.

[willowleaf]

I think one of the most genius models Feathercraft came up with is their hybrid skin on frame/inflatable sit on top Java, and I was thrilled to add a meticulously cared-for used one to my fleet 3 years ago. Never been a big fan of sit on tops but this one is a whole different animal. 15’ 4" by 28" and only 33 pounds it can be set up as solo or tandem and has BOTH a drop down cable operated skeg AND the excellent removable Feathercraft rudder (which was so well-regarded they used to sell them separately to hard shell owners). It sets up in 15 minutes solo and in 10 with a helper. Way faster on the water than any plastic tandem barge I have ever used (and I have rented them many times during my travels, from Lake Tahoe to the Virgin Islands). I figured as I enter geezer-hood it was worthwhile to have a kayak I could more easily clamber onto. It has already proven useful for loaning to friends with limited flexibility – one was able to use it less than 6 weeks after hip replacement. Photo below, note the adjustable rigid footpegs, rigid skeletal frame and cargo nets. Seat bottoms have inflatable bladders for custom support. Shell is dacron cordura with bonded rubberized hull. The 4 parallel sponsons are vinyl slipped inside protective sleeves so easily removed for patching if needed, The 4 valves are grouped at the stern and it only takes about 3 minutes of hand pumping to maximize inflation. Brilliant boat. And no spray skirt needed.

[Jyak]

Dang, I wondered why you though 43 lbs was heavy. It’s a shame companies fail because they can’t meet demands and have technical issues

This is why I say many threads result in more periferal info than the intent of the OP, if it’s allowed to flourish. Think of what we would have missed if the post ended once the original question had been answered. We win.

Excellent background. When I originally heard the term foldable, I thought of the origami boats, which you point out as being incredibly light, but there is a bigger world out there.

[willowleaf]

People have crossed the Atlantic in folding kayaks. They have been a staple of recreational kayaking in Europe since the early 1900s (when they were made of wood frames and oiled canvas skins) and increasingly in Asia, both regions of the world where people don’t have the big homes and garages and yards that we Americans enjoy.

And folders have had military use since before World War II, especially popular with commando units. Feathercraft supplied some custom kayaks to US Special Forces and Seals. FC’s always came with a well designed backpack that could be used by a paratrooper. Long Haul still makes a military grade tandem kayak, the Mark II, with gun mounts for $10,000 and I have heard that Ukraine has some of them for special ops. There’s a guy on one of the FB folder groups I am on who bought one from the Polish armed forces. I think it weighs over 90 pounds with all the accessories, double hull and gear pods.

The Brits during WW II used folders they called “the Cockleshells” for famous raids and reconnaissance throughout the Mediterranean, parts of Europe and Southeast Asia.

Check out this Nautiraid Nook: 18’ x 22" and 43 pounds ($3600 though). It would def beat a Pungo (paddled by anyone who could keep her upright.) Saw a couple of them at Greenland kayak camps last year but didn’t get a chance to try one.

[willowleaf]

This is the 24 pound Pakboat Puffin 12 packed for airline travel and a spread of what is in that bag:

[Jyak]

Oh, yes yes yes, you take us back to WW2 and gun mounts. You do know your Homer (sorry, reference to a scene in a PBS series, “i Claudius,” a brilliant series). I’ll wager that you know more about folding kayaks than the manufacturers. @szihn, are you paying attention. I want one. Far more than I expected from this thread. Great intro @chiprat. I’m not on the market for a folding yak, but I’m sure somebody is or will be.

Paddling a kayak is a very personsl experience. I looked for a faster kayak but concluded that I was too attatched to the chacteristics of the Tsunami. Being able to pack your boat and fly it around the world has to be a comfort. Sure beats paddling a bathtub (i was actually curious about the feasibility of that as a kid - kids are funny).

[willowleaf]

Thank you! In fact I do “know my Homer” – attended public high school in a district outside of Boston that still mandated the “classics” (and mandatory Latin) for their college-tracked students. Greek, Roman and even Norse history. literature and mythology were part of the curriculum.

Agree completely with you that “I, Claudius” and “Claudius, the God” was a brilliant series. It was so popular here in my city when it first broadcast on PBS on Sunday nights that when I was at the bus stop heading for work Monday mornings EVERYBODY there, from college profs to cleaning ladies, would be talking excitedly about the latest “scandal in Rome”. I wish it was accessible for streaming, as I would gladly watch it again.

Another sad outcome of the demise of Feathercraft is that there used to be a passel of outfitters who offered extended guided tours using FC kayaks around the world, in locations like Baja, Alaska, Thailand and the Aegean. There is still a guy based in Singapore, I think, who seeks used Feathercrafts to run tours in southeast Asia. They were long the toughest and best performing open water touring folders. I don’t know enough about the boats from Nautiraid and Long Haul and other companies expanding the market at this point to evaluate whether they are suitable replacements, though from what I see in their specs they are heavier than FCs with similar metrics. There are still outfitters than use Pakboat and Ally canoes for their guided tours. The loss of the foldingkayaks.com forum has drastically cut down communication and sharing in the “bag boat” community, but I try to keep in contact with several people around the world who share my geekiness about them.

I know there are folks on this forum who chafe at some of us more voluble members’ tendency to digress from OP topics. But I have learned so much from these meandering threads. Those that object to them can either stop reading or insist we transfer to a new thread. I’ve done that before just to be polite. But, as with IRL conversations, straying “off topic” can ofter be serendipitous. Your posts tend to be long but I have learned from them, especially useful when friends come to me asking for advice on kayak models with which I have little experience and I can refer them to your detailed evaluations.

[Jyak]

I looked lomg and hard for “I, Claudius.” Brilliantbeyond description. I never heard of the other one.

You opened my eyes to the diversity of foldable, that I do “affectionately” refer to as origami boats. The though of them all being either heavy, cumbersome to paddle, or slow is unrealistic. Fortunately, this is actually on topic.

Too often we write to a specific audience, but on a public access forum, we need to consider everyone with internet access an audience. I came across the forum while researching parts for a used 145 Tsunami that my nephew bought and I picked it up. The unexpected irony of that purchase is that @Craig_S lives in that area and considered buying that boat for his son. It was adverised as like new condition. It looked good on paper, but in person, the holds were full of sand and mildew; it perhaps had broken free in a storm which filled it with sediment. The foot pegs were inoperable, the seats in tatters, the bulkheads looked like a badger had been trappedinside and tried to claw it’s way out. The bungees stretched and took a set like old pantyhose. Google queries showed the paddle forum threads. At the time, I was recovering from the damaged left rotator cuff and sepsis, a 9 month ordeal. I was a bit despondent because I realized my kayaking days were over. Two of the tendons that keep the left shoulder in place are permanently detatched. Reading some of the “old timer” whoahs made me realize that others had recovered from worse predicaments. The threads convinced me to join the party. It took a while, but it rekindled my desire to paddle. Despite the dismally poor performance compared to where I left off, i gradually improved. One reason I focus on efficiency is because I no longer enjoy the physical ability of a 65 year old youngster. Last year, four years later and woth the help of this forum, I reached my goal of matching the speeds over a set course which I took for granted in past years. That was increadibly liberating.

Every post we generate should keep in mind that a total stranger to this activity may be reading. We need to ve congenial, informative, all inclusive and respectful. Nothing should be fabricated, inaccurate or dismissive regarding other ideas. It happens, but fortunately there is usually no lingering or long term damage. Along those lines, I have no objection to deleting any post that anyone finds divisive.

The only problem with off topic is that there is no way to get back to the topic by consulting the archives. If we start recommending kayak lights or paddles, nobody can easily go back and find it.

I don’t feel for anyone who finds topics long, tedious or misplaced. Look at the name of the poster and simply mutter, “Not that blowhard again!” I don’t feel it. I read EVERY post. Applicable to me or not. Its how we learn. As I mentioned, I have no desire to buy a foldable, but there are many out there who can look at the Oru vs Pungo and gain a wealth of related knowledge.

[willowleaf]

“Claudius, the God” was the second season of the Emperor Claudius saga and it continued the historical fiction in the second of the volumes by British author and literary critic, Robert Graves. Graves lifted the events surrounding Claudius life from the Roman historian Suetonius’ chronicles of the feats and foibles of the Roman emperors in his “The Twelve Caesars”.

The second series was just as juicy as the first and ends with the ghost of Claudius reminiscing after his corrupt last wife, Agrippina the Younger, poisons him so that her son from a prior marriage, Nero, can take the throne. You might have seen both series since PBS rolled them out through Masterpiece Theater in sequence.

https://www.i-claudius.com

More inter-related trivia (and the reason I know about the author of “I, Claudius”: my English professor Dad, a fan of Robert Graves writings, named me for Graves’ creative muse, the mythical Welsh “White Goddess” Cerridwen, the Celtic patron of the arts and sciences. Among other legends, she was the mother of Merlin the Magician

[Jyak]

I saw only the first.

[castoff]

Carol and I watched it on Masterpiece Theater when it came out. She was carrying our first at the time. Just got off the phone wishing our first grandchild happy birthday on Pi Day. That show, Nova and Nature have long been TV staples of ours.

[Jyak]

Worthy of a celebration.

[Craig_S]

@willowleaf

While I understand why a lot of folks like Pungos - great pond and slow river boat for relaxed sight-seeing with a huge cockpit for easy access – they have to also be a hell of a lot of work to propel with any kind of speed.

Not really at least I think so, I have an Aspire 105 (10’ 6") and have easily done around 4 mph getting to my favorite fishing spots. It actually suprised me I was expecting 3 maybe 3.5 mph but it moves. Found that out in my F&S fishing kayak, and my wife walked away from me in in her Aspire 100, well didn’t really walk away from me but I had to put in more effort to keep up with her than I would have thought.

It was fast enough that bought the bigger one and sold the F&S which was heavier and longer and had the same carrying capacity. So go figure. The pungo has the same hull design just on a longer platform so the angle to the beam is less providing a bit less resistance.

Now the skin on frame boats can be fast. But I’m too much of an overgrown sasquatch I’d have holes in mine real quick I have the knack for sharp rocks and glass finding.

[Jyak]

@chiprat, you sure beat the snot out of this post.

[willowleaf]

Skin on frames are tough. The skin we use on them is usually 9 ounce ballistic cloth and it is coated with a 2 part epoxy which results in a rugged rubbery tight material. It bounces off rocks and even rebar sticking out of old corroded docks and concrete sea walls. There is a youtube video of a guy demonstrating how hard it is to tear the skin – he has one that he wants to re-skin (after 10 or 15 years the stitched seams can start to stretch and the lacing wears through and sometimes the wooden frame can sustain a crack so you need to remove the skin for repairs and re-skin). The video shows how smashing it with the CLAW END of a hammer can’t even penetrate the surface. And his boat is made of lighter fabric and ZAR coating, which is not as flexible.

Yes they are tough-revisited

With my ballistic cloth/urethane skin boat, and even with my fabric folders, which are heavy gauge coated dacron of PVC with reinforced rubberized hulls, I have never punctured any of them, and I most often paddle in murky lakes and urban rivers with rocky shores, concrete structures and submerged tree trunks and rusty metal industrial ruins.

Also, the wooden frames are typically lashed together with synthetic sinew rather than metal fasteners, so there is some slight flex in them which allows the joints to resist breakage. The metal, plastic and/or wood frames of folding kayaks flex even more, with the skins reacting to the force of water by absorbing some of the shock instead of bouncing off like a rigid shell. This makes them more forgiving in rough water. There is a different feel to paddling a skin on frame boat – you are more connected to the water in a way. Hard to describe to anyone, has to be experienced.

[willowleaf]

It appears, now that I’ve gone down the rabbit hole, that the 13 part series contained BOTH of Graves’ books under the “I, Claudius” name so you DID see the whole story. I’d read both the books as well so I was thinking there were two parts to the series as well, my error.

I googled and found that the Claudius series is available for streaming on several sources including Acorn TV and Apple TV. Also found several cheap DVD and VHS sets on Ebay and may order one (cheaper than signing up for another streaming service). The TV choices lately have been dismal (and my local PBS has been in a two-week fundraising mode with nothing but dreck re-runs of variety and cooking shows) so I have been going through Masterpiece Theater withdrawal combined with cabin fever, and plumbing the streaming archives. Even re-watched all 39 episodes of the outrageously gory and pornographic Roman historical epic “Spartacus” all the way through. Though one bit of “realism” that that series used is that they have the dialogue reflect how Romans would have spoken, as if it was a word for word translation of Latin Vulgate. For instance, saying “gratitude” instead of “thank you” and not using personal pronouns and articles like “the” and “a/an”. My Linguistic’s Prof Dad would have approved.

[Jyak]

@willowleaf

I googled and found that the Claudius series

Until watching that video, i had no idea the skin on craft skin was so tough. I got tired of watching him abuse it.