Can you go faster on flatwater with a longer kayak paddle?

Advice
#21

One detail that nobody has yet remarked on here is that the OP says he has a Stinger XP kayak, which is a “crossover” that is essentially a stretched out version of the Liquid Logic Remix XP, kind of a weird 12’ hybrid that is rec boat in the bow and whitewater race boat in the stern. Marketed as an “expedition boat” with more load room than most ww kayaks and a skeg to assist tracking on the flats.

Sasquanch: maybe you already know this but you’ll need a different paddle for white water than for flatwater, shorter shaft and with a fixed offset of broader, shorter blades. Are you planning trips that will include a mix of both? It’s generally recommended that you carry a spare paddle on any extended trips so the whitewater paddle could be your backup on flatwater trips.

By the way, the reason I ask this is that your kayak model is recommended for “intermediate to advanced” skill level whitewater paddlers and is designed for up to class IV to V rapids. It’s designed to turn quickly, not track well – they added the skeg to compensate and it reportedly allows that but it will also rely on good paddling skills. You may always have to paddle with the skeg down in flatwater or find yourself spinning in circles. I’m honestly kind of wondering why you chose this model, based on your stated ambitions of paddling ponds and on flatwater rivers to camp. Seems sort of like you bought a Ferrari when you really needed a Subaru wagon.

#22

Oh………12 ft boat?!..…Excuse me, two miles is just fine.

#23

@Sasquanch said:
Thanks Peter, also thanks for the link. Maybe I’m in the 220cm range. I have a long torso, wide shoulders, not sure the usual measuring will work for me though I’m 5’ 7" & fit. I am a low angle paddler though as I progress toward learning more proper technique that may change. I appreciate the thoughtful response! Have you any thoughts on the paddles that have ergonomically shaped shafts?

Long paddles will force you to be a low angle paddler. Trying a shorter paddle when you try higher angle will help to see if it is right for you.

Most paddles come with grip ergonomics of one sort of another, such as shafts that are not perfectly round where you put your hand.

But I suspect you are asking about bent shaft paddles. I don’t use, but my understanding is they are good for people who have wrist issues when paddling. Changing feather angles also can impact wrist issues.

You also mentioned about wings and things you can’t do as well. That is one of the main reasons I don’t use a wing. I am often in bouncier water where being able to brace and roll is important for me, and these are harder to do with a wing. My paddle selection is about a half dozen euro blades and 1 greenland, but I pretty much only use 1 of the euro blades all the time and a second is carried as a spare. As I said before, YMMV so go with what feels right for you. Probably look unusual to see someone in a Liquid Logic Stinger with a wing paddle, but there is nothing illegal or wrong about doing so.

#24

I owned a bent shaft and a wing. Never liked either. But, I’m an old dog and those were new tricks.

#25

@Peter-CA said:
Long paddles will force you to be a low angle paddler.

Yes that’s exactly what has happened. I conformed to the tool in hand but, I am sure that I will adapt very quickly to the much shorter paddle, & go faster as well. Pretty cool! ;). Too psyched!

#26

@willowleaf said:
One detail that nobody has yet remarked on here is that the OP says he has a Stinger XP kayak, which is a “crossover” that is essentially a stretched out version of the Liquid Logic Remix XP, kind of a weird 12’ hybrid that is rec boat in the bow and whitewater race boat in the stern. Marketed as an “expedition boat” with more load room than most ww kayaks and a skeg to assist tracking on the flats.

Sasquanch: maybe you already know this but you’ll need a different paddle for white water than for flatwater, shorter shaft and with a fixed offset of broader, shorter blades. Are you planning trips that will include a mix of both? It’s generally recommended that you carry a spare paddle on any extended trips so the whitewater paddle could be your backup on flatwater trips.

By the way, the reason I ask this is that your kayak model is recommended for “intermediate to advanced” skill level whitewater paddlers and is designed for up to class IV to V rapids. It’s designed to turn quickly, not track well – they added the skeg to compensate and it reportedly allows that but it will also rely on good paddling skills. You may always have to paddle with the skeg down in flatwater or find yourself spinning in circles. I’m honestly kind of wondering why you chose this model, based on your stated ambitions of paddling ponds and on flatwater rivers to camp. Seems sort of like you bought a Ferrari when you really needed a Subaru wagon.

Okay, fair enough willowleaf! :slight_smile:

I’ll try to explain why I chose the Stinger XP as my first-ever new kayak. The Stinger XP, yes is a ‘crossover’ boat. I can use it on rivers and creeks as well as on flatwater. That is a big plus, that few rec kayaks, at least that I know of, can handle. Most rec kayaks are not rated for moving water let alone exciting, dynamic conditions. My local friends might stick to flatwater, but I don’t.

I do intend to use the skeg technology when I am on flatwater, but not because of some lack of ability or experience in tracking straight in a smooth-bottomed boat with rocker. With a 96" paddle. I have sufficient experience paddling smooth bottomed boats with rocker. I’ll track well enough either way, I generally twist the paddle through the stroke so that the force dynamic pushes away when it needs to and pulls when it needs to, which assists in tracking reasonably enough. No doubt I’ll improve. I am also comfortable paddling in the secondary stability range, and don’t care if I roll or have to swim, I am prepared for that. I have decent balance skills, can hold a track stand on a bicycle indefinitely.

My form may not be modern or healthy, but it sure has been functional thus far. I do, want to learn to paddle as others do, I am humble about that but, I am competent enough on the water. I taught myself to roll. I look forward to learning how others roll, new techniques etc. though I’m not without skills of my own.

My boats have always been narrow, always had lots of rocker, always had smooth bottoms. Canoes as well. My lapstrake dinghy has a skeg but, that’s another story.

The Stinger was designed specifically to run the Green River. Some years into the design they made the tail longer, then still later they added the rear cargo hatch. Class 5 rear cargo hatch! The boat is tough, tried & true. That is important.

I accept that you are speaking from experience when you compare the front of my boat, to a ‘rec kayak’. :frowning: I am hopeful however that its performance will prove beyond that. It is said to be one of the fastest boats of its type out there. One thing’s for sure - I don’t expect this boat to fold like a tortilla if I come up hard against something.

There is some cool whitewater on the white river off the CT river that I have always wanted to play in, but in my old, sun-rotted fiberglass kayak it would be both embarrassing, & unwise. With this new boat, I can paddle there with confidence that my gear won’t fail me. I don’t take unnecessary chances and walk what I’m going to paddle.

I looked at rec kayaks, 1/3 the price, lighter, tons of cargo space, selfie shelf etc… Just kept coming back to the thing folding on me. Can’t have that. So I ended up choosing the Stinger XP. Liquid Logic boats also have the badass fitting, making them a comfortable boat.

If I don’t like it, I’ll buy something else! But as it’s a Ferrari, I expect I’m going to like it :slight_smile:

#27

Maybe I am on the wrong track but do you do Archery? Do you know about arrow spine? See in Archery you need to have the right spine arrow for your bow, not too much and not too little otherwise it mismatches and won’t flex the right way so you’ll be inaccurate, or you could potentially even damage your bow. But spine isn’t stiffness, stiffness is one of the elements that goes into calculating spine but it also has to do with how long the arrow is, the power of the bow, and how heavy different pieces of the arrow will be, especially the arrow head around which the whole bend will be created and oscillate.

The way it works is this: it’s not just about stiffness. You could have the stiffest paddle made of unobtainium. But as the Archimedes once said, give me a lever long enough and I can lift the earth. Well it works both ways. Try taking two pencils of the same brand and material. No grab both at the ends and try to flex it, not quite break it, but almost. See which one will flex and move more: the longer one of course.

What I mean is that a longer paddle has more leverage to bend itself (and transfer the force to you and create slop in the system) vs a shorter one that keeps things tighter and more efficient. But the bigger you are you will need a bigger paddle as there are other benefits that you can use; that said a little too short is always better than a little too long. Maybe 10 years ago a lot of paddles that were too long were sold. Most people will do quite well in the 210-220 range at the highest. Any more than that and you’re just wasting energy bending the paddle and putting more strain on yourself creating slop and bend when there would otherwise be none if you used a shorter one.

#28

I repeat; try a lot of different techniques and see what works best for you. Be aware that it might take years and hundreds of miles before you decide what works best for you.

If you are referring to the oval shaped shaft on most Euro paddles, I’m not so sure it is primarily for hand comfort. For me, it lets me know the angle of my blade without having to look at it when I’m feathered for paddling into the wind. I’ve never had that discussion with paddle manufacturers that I recall.

There are obviously some opinions here that I believe might work for some and not at all for others. Watch a lot of YouTube instruction videos, but don’t be so rigid about it that you can’t experiment and refine your style to fit your body. I’ve been doing this for a long time and I still find myself trying new subtle refinements from time to time. However, when I’m not paying attention, I find that I slip right back to the mechanics that work best for me.

Has anyone mentioned to you that it might work best for you to develop a good torso rotation by concentrating on pushing the blade that is out of the water instead of thinking about pulling the blade that is in the water. The amount you pull the blade in the water will come naturally. Push the blade by twisting your torso and not by straightening your arm. If your arms are long like mine, you might find it less tiring and more comfortable to keep your arms bent. I’ve seen just the opposite for people with short arms.

If your boat has a skeg, use it. A long time ago I thought that all sorts of leaning and paddle monkeying was the way to go to keep the boat tracking. The only time I would use the skeg was downwind surfing. I finally realized that a little skeg all the time makes it much easier. Every boat will let you know how much skeg you need. I’ve paddled some very long kayaks that absolutely could not track without a full rudder. My favorite boat has no skeg and no rudder and it doesn’t need either. It does force you to learn bow ruddering, which I think everyone should learn anyway.

#29

Yes, with a little more background I can see why you chose the Stinger now that it’s clear that you want a boat for whitewater.

But getting back to the paddle choice, your description of “twisting” your stroke to compensate for it pushing the boat off track is a little disconcerting. Is this a habit you developed from using a j-stroke with a canoe paddle? While this may work for you for the two mile jaunts you are describing, I think it is going to be not only tiring but possibly quite hard on your joints on longer trips. It’s not efficient, nor is it necessary if you have the right size and model of paddle and good form.

One thing that has not come up (unless I missed it) is blade size and shape. A lot of newbies to kayaking bent on speed make the mistake of thinking that a large wide paddle blade will contribute to speed. But that is usually a mistake, especially on flat water. A fat blade may somewhat increase immediate acceleration but it will fatigue you eventually if you want to sustain speed over distance. Big blades are a pain in windy conditions too, and can force you to offset them to avoid catching the wind on the upper blade. I prefer to use narrow Greenland paddles for touring 90% of the time and can always keep up with and, more often, outpace my companions who are using conventional “Euro” paddles. All my kayaks are narrow (20" to 24") and most have twitchy primary stability but good secondary (once I learn to trust them.)

You’re going to have a wide fat blade for your whitewater ventures where you need to power through quick changes in direction, but for touring your best options will be a longer and narrower blade profile in a conventional paddle or, alternatively, a mid-sized wing. As has been mentioned, you will need to learn different paddling technique to get the optimal benefit of a wing – despite what many people think, kayak paddling is NOT “intuitive”. I struggled with self-taught crappy form for several years before a paddling friend (who was a multi-year Canadian national champion kayaker) taught me better techniques and transformed both my performance and endurance. I had also started with too long a paddle (for some reason kayak shops used to always give new buyers 240 cm paddles – I’m 5’ 5" with short arms so that was really hampering me. Now I use 210 to 220 cm paddles – my whitewater paddle when I had a creek boat was 195 cm.

Keep weight in mind too. A few ounces can make a huge difference during an extended trip. You’ll pay more for a lighter paddle but it’s more than worth it in the long run,

#30

Magooch: you mention “most Euro paddles” having oval shafts. Could you clarify that? What model do you have that is oval? Unless I am greatly mistaken, I thought that was only a feature of higher end carbons as well as wings and some bent shafts. Werner has the major market share in the US and I think they only use ovals on canoe paddles. I’m pretty sure that most kayak paddle model shafts are round and certainly the majority of those sold are so. Or did you mean Greenland paddles?

#31

@willowleaf said:
Magooch: you mention “most Euro paddles” having oval shafts. Could you clarify that? What model do you have that is oval? Unless I am greatly mistaken, I thought that was only a feature of higher end carbons as well as wings and some bent shafts. Werner has the major market share in the US and I think they only use ovals on canoe paddles. I’m pretty sure that most kayak paddle model shafts are round and certainly the majority of those sold are so. Or did you mean Greenland paddles?

Most “euros, higher end carbons and wings” have round shafts.
I have had two different brand wings and a bunch of different brand euros, and they all have
round shafts. Oval shafts are much less popular.
Another thing to throw into the paddle mix is the diameter of the round shafts. The round ones come in several different diameter shafts, and my preference is the smaller one, (probably because my hands are not large)

#32

Bent shaft etc paddles, in my experience all not not equal for a given paddler. I never even noticed the bend in my H2O WW paddle from the first stroke, it has always felt natural against my own muscle angles. I have tried some others like Werner’s bent shaft and found them equally awkward from the first stroke. Something about Werner’s bends in the shaft and me does not work well. But I do fine with my straight shaft Cyprus.

I do like Euro paddles that oval a bit where the hand goes.

#33

@string said:
I owned a bent shaft and a wing. Never liked either. But, I’m an old dog and those were new tricks.

Yeah, I hear that! I’ll avoid both for my next paddle purchase. If the intrigue of competition eventually grips me, I can look at those solutions later.

#34

@Celia said:
Bent shaft etc paddles, in my experience all not not equal for a given paddler. I never even noticed the bend in my H2O WW paddle from the first stroke, it has always felt natural against my own muscle angles. I have tried some others like Werner’s bent shaft and found them equally awkward from the first stroke. Something about Werner’s bends in the shaft and me does not work well. But I do fine with my straight shaft Cyprus.

Cyprus, eh? I am looking for recommendations, so thanks! On websites, paddles pretty much look the same, apart from the price. So guidance/suggestions very much appreciated! I’ve not had a paddle with an oval grip area but I like the idea, particularly when trying to figure out what the paddle orientation is when underwater.

I do like Euro paddles that oval a bit where the hand goes.

#35

@Sasquanch The Cyprus is a high angle paddle, meaning that trying to paddle low angle with it is likely to produce unsatisfactory results.

Before you decide to go for a paddle, decide if you want to work on potentially altering your paddle stroke if you go for a high angle paddle. Even used the Cyprus comes in at a couple hundred, new it is over $400 last I looked.

#36

@CA139 said:
Maybe I am on the wrong track but do you do Archery? Do you know about arrow spine? See in Archery you need to have the right spine arrow for your bow, not too much and not too little otherwise it mismatches and won’t flex the right way so you’ll be inaccurate, or you could potentially even damage your bow. But spine isn’t stiffness, stiffness is one of the elements that goes into calculating spine but it also has to do with how long the arrow is, the power of the bow, and how heavy different pieces of the arrow will be, especially the arrow head around which the whole bend will be created and oscillate.

The way it works is this: it’s not just about stiffness. You could have the stiffest paddle made of unobtainium. But as the Archimedes once said, give me a lever long enough and I can lift the earth. Well it works both ways. Try taking two pencils of the same brand and material. No grab both at the ends and try to flex it, not quite break it, but almost. See which one will flex and move more: the longer one of course.

What I mean is that a longer paddle has more leverage to bend itself (and transfer the force to you and create slop in the system) vs a shorter one that keeps things tighter and more efficient. But the bigger you are you will need a bigger paddle as there are other benefits that you can use; that said a little too short is always better than a little too long. Maybe 10 years ago a lot of paddles that were too long were sold. Most people will do quite well in the 210-220 range at the highest. Any more than that and you’re just wasting energy bending the paddle and putting more strain on yourself creating slop and bend when there would otherwise be none if you used a shorter one.

Thanks CA139. I switched to carbon fiber arrows last year, though I can’t say I was dialed in to the degree you describe. I’m whole food/plant-based apart what what I take, I don’t consider hunting a sport but I do participate in the NH deer hunts.

I can’t say enough how I appreciate the guidance from you all on this forum, you have already saved me a lot of pain, & money as well. I should have reached out a long time ago. My paddle is about 12 years old, I always thought paddling was about maximum leverage to take advantage of what I could bring to it but, clearly I have been on a wrong track!!!

#37

@magooch said:
I repeat; try a lot of different techniques and see what works best for you. Be aware that it might take years and hundreds of miles before you decide what works best for you.

If you are referring to the oval shaped shaft on most Euro paddles, I’m not so sure it is primarily for hand comfort. For me, it lets me know the angle of my blade without having to look at it when I’m feathered for paddling into the wind. I’ve never had that discussion with paddle manufacturers that I recall.

There are obviously some opinions here that I believe might work for some and not at all for others. Watch a lot of YouTube instruction videos, but don’t be so rigid about it that you can’t experiment and refine your style to fit your body. I’ve been doing this for a long time and I still find myself trying new subtle refinements from time to time. However, when I’m not paying attention, I find that I slip right back to the mechanics that work best for me.

Has anyone mentioned to you that it might work best for you to develop a good torso rotation by concentrating on pushing the blade that is out of the water instead of thinking about pulling the blade that is in the water. The amount you pull the blade in the water will come naturally. Push the blade by twisting your torso and not by straightening your arm. If your arms are long like mine, you might find it less tiring and more comfortable to keep your arms bent. I’ve seen just the opposite for people with short arms.

If your boat has a skeg, use it. A long time ago I thought that all sorts of leaning and paddle monkeying was the way to go to keep the boat tracking. The only time I would use the skeg was downwind surfing. I finally realized that a little skeg all the time makes it much easier. Every boat will let you know how much skeg you need. I’ve paddled some very long kayaks that absolutely could not track without a full rudder. My favorite boat has no skeg and no rudder and it doesn’t need either. It does force you to learn bow ruddering, which I think everyone should learn anyway.

YES angle of the blade is so critical when there’s no time to ‘set up’, I’ve been getting around it by having painted one side of the blades of the paddle white so, I can see where it’s at underwater but, often seems like there’s no time even for that so I have to reset which is fine on a calm lake when I’m relaxed but, if I’m tired or out of breath it’s well, still fine but not great.

I sort of hate youtube for some reason, gotta get over that. I have long monkey arms, always paddle from twisting my trunk or torso but, it seems I am taking that to an extreme. With a shorter paddle, that’s all going to go away which is why I want to pick up a new paddle ASAP - tonight after work. I also pick up the Stinger XP tonight. Very psyched.

Yeah, I said that I can paddle the XP without the skeg, and track okay but… truthfully that is yet to be proven & no doubt it would be infuriatingly slow and busy paddling. Honestly I’ll probably keep the skeg down all of the time, it’s spring-loaded so shouldn’t matter. Even on whitewater I’ll keep it down some of the time. I don’t expect to be doing gates this year lol but who knows, there’s a local race that’s coming right up… Shallow and very little drop over the course, it looks super-easy but… :slight_smile: Thanks!

#38

@Celia said:
@Sasquanch The Cyprus is a high angle paddle, meaning that trying to paddle low angle with it is likely to produce unsatisfactory results.

Before you decide to go for a paddle, decide if you want to work on potentially altering your paddle stroke if you go for a high angle paddle. Even used the Cyprus comes in at a couple hundred, new it is over $400 last I looked.

I am committed to changing my paddling style, at least attempting to change. It is clear from the advise I’ve received here, that a much shorter paddle is THE way forward. So I paddle all sorts of ways but always with a 96" paddle which has forced me into low angle paddling in many situations. That’s going away, so I’ll be high angle paddling now. 400 is steep for a different sort of paddle, I can go to maybe 250? I’ll look around. Thanks!

#39

Looks like a player or desperado 2 piece ought to work if I can find one. Maybe 210cm…

#40

My advice would be to pick up a couple of short used paddles and see what works for you. I’m taller than you by just a bit and mostly use 193 cm . I used longer paddles long ago but they caused issues with shoulder pain, elbow tendonitis etc. Learn to paddle most efficiently and you will end up with a smaller blade and a much shorter length. Stores that rent high quality gear often have sales in the fall and spring on used equipment. It’s a good way to test out paddles without spending a lot of money. When you know what you want $300 or so is well worth the money spent if you paddle a lot. Probably more important than the kayak you use.