Canoe rudder?

My winter project is adding a rudder to my Sawyer cruiser canoe. I have built a pretty workable system similar to the rudders on the Sawyer loon or M.R. Monarch. Now it’s time to make a blade for the business end of this project. I don’t think I need anything as large as the blades that Sawyer, Mad River used for the conditions that this boat sees, (big open rivers/ lots of wind). DON’T need quick cornering, just help battling wind and holding a straight coarse.



What’s the optimum size for the blade? Should it reach down below the keel to “clean” water, sit level with the keel or just down to a certain depth below waterline?



What about the length of the blade, (the under water part)?



Lots of conflicting info out there, just thought I’d see what people who use rudders on there canoes think before I start cutting.



Thanks John

kayak rudders
Suggest looking at kayak rudder systems, they do a very similar thing on basically the same boat.



Bill H.

Wenonah
uses a smart track systems on their Fusions. You could always email them. Pretty helpful folks.

rudders
I did not put a rudder on my Pygmy sea kayak. Once you learn how to paddle a rudder is not necessary especially on a canoe, and especially on a river where you often need to go sideways. Sometimes solo canoe paddling in the wind is easier with a kayak paddle.



There are going to times when a rudder on a canoe in a river is going to work against you and could even be dangerous.

tink big
mount bow and stern…



see you in the water

Consider tracing the line of the MR
Monarch rudder and downsize all around… maybe leave the top as wide. I don’t find my Monarch rudder to be too robust there.

Good for turning away from beam waves,
especially if a straight tracking canoe and waves are high. Not to wise to lower the wave side of an open canoe to affect a faster turn.



I had a rudder on a Sawyer Summersong and it made the above described situation safe and easy, rather than exhausting and treacherous.



Every time I started to get the turn going, the next wave would slap the stern and straighten the boat out to be parallel to the waves again as my group in sea kayaks merely turned left and kept going. I swallowed my canoeist pride, dropped the rudder and turned and the rudder stayed down the rest of the 16 mile trip on that windy lake.



Your pride and pain tolerance may yield a different decision than mine.

Canoe rudder
Thank you, I appreciate the replies.



I like the monarch rudder system for its simple gravity operation, that is why I used it for the “inspiration” for this build.



This is an ultra marathon boat where there is alot of opportunity for a rudder failure, my main reason for avoiding overly complicated over designed systems.



Probably I will make the blade somewhat oversized then trim it down until I find the optimum size/shape. Maybe make a temporary blade of plywood and experiment.



Thanks again John

rudders
There is a reason you only see rudders on sailing canoes.

rudders
There is a reason you only see rudders on sailing canoes.

Rudders

– Last Updated: Jan-11-16 6:33 AM EST –

Ppine, I see plenty of rudders on raceing and marathon canoes! Check out pictures from the MR340 and Texas water safari, two of the longest and hardest paddle races in the U.S. . Easily 50 percent of canoes in those races carry rudders, 90 percent of the top 10 finishers will use them as well.

Not interested in debating whether rudders on canoes are proper or have value. I have seen there value in several races.

Corrective strokes waste effort and cost forward strokes. Rudder allows the stearn paddler to focus 100 percent of his effort into forward motion.

Just looking for constructive info from people who have it.

John R

absolutely not true
you see them on sea canoes like the Monarch, Loon and Sea Wind.

I can fully understand…
what you aretrying to do.

I can’t help you, but can make a couple of comments:

I race a QCC kayak with a Standard Smart Track rudder.

A friend who used to race with a QCC gave me his cut down one that he used in races before switching to surf skis

If I am racing in strong quartering winds the standard one is my choice, but in any races that are in calm water, I’ll switch it out to the short one and needless to say, there is less drag and I can turn just as well



Other comment: Keep in mind that if you are doing marathon races in accordance with USCA class specs, the rudder would be a no, no



On all those long distance races, just about any modification goes, so I say go for it.

I see lots of Texas Water Safari Boats with them



jack L

Disagree

– Last Updated: Jan-11-16 5:07 AM EST –

Ppine, I see plenty of rudders on raceing and marathon canoes! Check out pictures from the MR340 and Texas water safari, two of the longest and hardest paddle races in the U.S. Easily 50 percent of the canoes in those races carry rudders. 90 percent of top ten finishers will use them as well.

Not interested in debating whether rudders on canoes are proper or have value. I have seen there value in several races.

Corrective strokes waste effort and cost forward strokes. Rudder allows stearn paddler to focus 100 percent of his effort into forward motion.

Just looking for constructive info from those that have it.

John R

If You Race the MO 340…
…you may be acquainted with a friend of mine who goes by Joewildlife here? I helped him get his first decked canoe, a Mad River Monarch, but he has a couple Krugers and a Sawyer Loon or two also.



Anyway, a few years ago Joe had his Monarch updated to more Kruger-like standards; primarily a reinforced deck and beefier rudder. He may have some info and/or spare rudders? He will definitely have advice and he’s a great guy. I’ll send him a message to check out this thread. Here’s a pic of him and “Wilson” in one of his MR 340’s:

http://www.pbase.com/ozarkpaddler/image/162311656/original

Once again

– Last Updated: Jan-11-16 12:58 PM EST –

Thank you for the replys.

Wildernessweb, I don't know Joe personally but I have read many of his threads and replys on this and other forums. He is an aficionado of canoe rudders. I learned alot from information that Joe posted when I was preparing for my first 340. I did not however follow his advice to get a MR340 tatoo!

kayamedic, Verlen Kruger was a master boat designer, builder and an incredible paddler. He for sure knew what he was doing when he put rudders on the Sea Wind, Monarch and Loon

Jack L, you planted an idea in my mind with your response about your two different size rudders. Hadn't even thought of making a couple of interchangeable blades for different conditions. Great idea!

John R

yes
Ozarkpaddler, I’m honored by your kind words. And you have read all about my experience with rudders.



What I might add here. I recently added a Clipper Sea 1 to my fleet and it was equipped with a Feathercraft K-1 rudder. The Clipper is Canada’s take on the decked expedition canoe, about the same length, width, and weight of the Kruger Sea Wind. I found the dinky K-1 rudder it came with to be too small. I swapped out the blade for a K-2 rudder. I think the K-2 rudder, although larger, is actually more efficient than the smaller one. In part you don’t have to turn the rudder as far to get X amount of turning force. I think big rudder at 5 degrees turn probably has less drag than a smaller rudder at 10 degrees turn. Of course I could be all wrong about that! Your idea to experiment with rudder size is probably a good one, and for a big canoe like you are planning on using it on, I would start off with a full size blade in order to turn/plant a boat that size. I think it would have to extend below the keel into clean water for best effect. Yeah start with Kruger size and shape and go from there.

cheers,

Joe

pvc
I have a sawyer with a sailing rig. I made the rudder and lee board out of pvc pipe. I cut 8 inch pvc the long way heated it slowly till soft and cooled flat. then cut out the rudder and lee board reheated the lee board and bent it to fit the rail. The lee board and rudder work well in wind to hold coarse when paddling too. It needs to be build very strong as it is a great stabilizer but the rocking motion of the canoe will put a lot of stress on the connection from the blade to the shaft. I used a S.S. shaft from a lower unit. and 2 dock plates. Allow for kick up. I used rubber hose for the universal joint to the broom stick handle. The boat could be steered with the slighest wrist motion I bungied the handle to the rail for auto pilot.

hope this helps I saw foey to the nay sayers on canoe rudders make the boat your own for what YOU use it for.

Joe

the canoe
The boats that hold the world record in mileage/expedition both boats had rudders.

28,000 miles by Kruger and Landick

And 21,000 miles from Arctic ocean to tip of cape horn

Kruger and Fons…had a rudder



The world record descent of the mississippi river—2340 miles in 18 days had a rudder.

Its the most efficient thing you can put on a boat…any boat…from an ocean liner to a canoe. No more wasted energy.

Rudder

– Last Updated: Jan-13-16 4:36 PM EST –

Thanks joewidlife and Aquanaut,

Good input Joe, I was considering a small blade for reduced drag but now you've got me thinking. With the size of my 18' cruiser I'll go bigger then trim down if I can. Bigger probably would be just as if not more efficient than an undersized blade if I don't have to present as much of the blades profile to affect the same amount of turn.

Aquanaut, great idea on the PVC flattened out! I never thought of doing that.

John