Canoe vs Kayaking

I would add as a benefit of canoes, that you can change position more easily while underway than in a SiNK (sit inside kayak.) I still love kayaking but as I get older I am finding that I get stiff and even painful sitting for more than a couple hours locked in the cockpit (even with torso rotation) and have to stop ashore and stretch my hip and knee joints sometimes before going on. In the canoe I can switch from sitting to kneeling as well as stretching my legs from the sitting position.

I don’t have as much of the stiffness problem in my Skin on Frame Greenland kayak since it doesn’t have a seat or thigh hooks. I can sit in it frog-legged or stretch my legs out straight

  1. A canoe can carry more beer
  2. A kayak is faster, easier to go long distances and can handle conditions better,

I do both

Willowleaf… I invite you to the pleasures of portaging in Temagami… You really DO want your head out into somewhat moving air… If it is stuck in a cockpit the skeeters love quiet air. I do wish there were some mass marketed portage yokes designed for kayaks… I have followed plastic kayak spoor through Algonquin… people drag them… Ugh. Not you of course.

Andy S… There is a bit of overgeneralization… Try a Savage River Falcon.
The stereotype of canoes being fat and pudgy and heavy and slow no longer is universally applicable.

previous posters have done a good job of breaking it down, I’ll just add a few comments from the ww/tripping perspective:

kayak: easier to attain and catch ww features (surfing waves) and with a blade on each end it is easier to brace in ww . The new adjustable backbands provide good lower back support so i find kayaks more comfortable to paddle regardless of the type of water- flat/ww. My lower body is not likely to fall asleep from kneeling too long in a kayak. Easier to outfit a kayak to get good boat/body contact.

canoe/ww c1: the pivot point can be directly under your chin, I really like the tighter turning point of a ww c1, A canoe or c1 forces you to use boat angle more on your offside so it teaches you some great balance. It is easier getting in and out of the canoe. The extra height of a canoe or c1 provide better vision when boating streams with gradient. Much easier to pack a canoe than a kayak and you have more room for gear because your legs are taking up less space. It is much easier to get into the set up position for rolling with a single bladed paddle. Less likely to be entrapped in ww drops.
Canoes are often a bit more versatile, allowing solo or tandem paddling with a single craft

but like I’ve said many times before, “it’s all good” the best boat is the one that gets you out on the water

I have very little canoeing experience so take this with that in mind. But I love the feeling a well-fitting kayak gives of being closer to - more IN - the water. In a canoe I’ve always felt more ON the water, at a further distance from it. (But after reading this thread I wonder if perhaps I’ve just never been in the right canoe!)

Thank you all for the great discussion. We just got back from a 5 day kayaking/glamping trip based out of Lake Umbagog in Northern NH. We saw lots of canoes and I was wondering, what’s it about canoes? I was going to post such a question when I got back and here it is!

So the “bad” news is I guess we have to buy more boats… :- )

But first, a question, do you really have to kneel? I’m sure you can sit but does that make you have less control? I love “skills improvement” part of boating but kneeling? I’m not sure I can do that for very long.

@Andy_Szymczak said:

  1. A canoe can carry more beer
  2. A kayak is faster, easier to go long distances and can handle conditions better,

Hmm… so that means if I didn’t have room for enough beer in my kayak … and ran out, at least I could paddle back to the nearest store quickly and the conditions wouldn’t prevent me from doing so? :wink:

NotthePainter
You would also see more canoes in the Adirondacks. Because of portaging.

My knees have joined the legion of those who can’t take a really long time kneeling, WITH a kneeling pad and knee pads. But it can be a better position for boat control (like turning and avoiding obstacles) than sitting especially in a solo canoe. If you are just paddling straight loaded, this may be less of a factor.

You can certainly paddle canoes sitting. Kneeling does offer more control and nearly all whitewater open boaters kneel, and usually have outfitting that includes thigh and/or knee straps, or a foam bulkhead that covers the thighs and knees. I do know of a couple of exceptions, whitewater open boaters whose knees no longer allow them to kneel, but most of those individuals tend to go to a kayak.

In a kayak you heel the boat by weighting one buttock and engaging the knee hook/thigh brace with the opposite leg. In a whitewater canoe you do the same by weighting one knee and engaging the bulkhead or straps with the opposite leg.

If you need more control than the usual sitting position offers you can improve matters by adding a foot brace and molded foam knee bumpers glued to the inside of the hull. Sometimes hip pads are also used. Knee bumps allow you to engage the hull at the gunwales with your knees to some extent.

A lot of boaters will set up their seats to allow intermittent kneeling. This can be a bit tricky because with conventional seats the seat must be positioned high enough to allow the paddler to quickly extract their feet from beneath the seat in case of an upset. Seats dedicated to sitting are often positioned lower for a lower center of gravity so sometimes this higher position can result in less initial stability when sitting. If your technique is good enough and canoe stable enough to allow this, then you can sit most of the time and kneel only when you need the enhanced control.

Kayakmedic: I’ve actually carried a couple of my light skin on frames inverted overhead by coiling a pool noodle (tied together with rope threaded through it to make a “donut”) and stuck between my noggin and the seat as a portage cushion. Have done the same using my PFD on the seat as a head cushion. Since my kayaks are pretty low profile that puts my vision below the deck of the inverted boat.

Now you’ve inspired me to invent a kayak portaging device. I’m thinking a fabric “sleeve” that would fasten snugly, maybe with adjustable straps, around the waist of the boat that would cover the cockpit and have a built in cushion for your head. That would keep skeeters out of the hull Could also add tough strap loops on both sides to give the portager something to grab onto as an alternative to grasping the coaming (which is how I usually carry the boats centered over my head.) Such a sleeve could also be a benefit on trips to substitute for the cockpit cover to keep critters out of the hull overnight. I’ll have to make some prototypes and beta-test them.

I find having the weight of the boat directly over my center of gravity makes it easier to carry than on one shoulder. Folks give me funny looks at the launch site, though. I’ll get one of my paddling buddies to shoot a pic next time I do it. Head carrying is the way that people have transported heavy loads for millennia and still do in many countries.

@willowleaf said:
I’ll have to make some prototypes and beta-test them.

I’ll be the first to volounteer as a beta tester! As stated, I do like the shoreline but I’d probably brave the woods more often if I had a better way to move my kayaks. The Trak will be better when (if?) I ever get it, but like you I’ll probably be moving it around quite a bit without disassembling each time.

I’ve had thoughts of making a device but more like a removable canoe yoke. I like the idea of a fabric sleeve for quite a few reasons.

@kayamedic said:
Willowleaf… I invite you to the pleasures of portaging in Temagami… You really DO want your head out into somewhat moving air… If it is stuck in a cockpit the skeeters love quiet air. I do wish there were some mass marketed portage yokes designed for kayaks… I have followed plastic kayak spoor through Algonquin… people drag them… Ugh. Not you of course.

Andy S… There is a bit of overgeneralization… Try a Savage River Falcon.
The stereotype of canoes being fat and pudgy and heavy and slow no longer is universally applicable.

Kim, it was an overgeneralization, my Summersong is quite fast and I’ve paddled a Rapidfire and was quite impressed by it.

I’ll work on that (a kayak portage gizmo) – it occurs to me that the design could also be used as a sling to enable two people to carry a boat side by side. already drafted a few sketches. I have lots of assorted materials and fittings since I used to modify and repair stuff for people when I managed an outfitter and have customized my own gear for years. I still use a 1909 Singer Model 15 treadle sewing machine that could probably stitch through a wooden 2 by 4.

Been making my own breathable cockpit covers using outdoor furniture fabric and marine grade bungee cord (see one below). Sort of gaudy but I was tired of not being able to find the black nylon ones in the bags of gear. In fact I discovered when I got to the launch site last weekend I had grabbed a black Snapdragon cockpit cover instead of my black SD sprayskirt which meant I got a soggy lap paddling with the GP and then a power boat wake dumped a wave into my cockpit while we were rafted up along shore on a snack break – I hate having a wet butt.

1 Like

I envy you the coming Trak, Sparky – spotted a Trak Pilot and one of his “clients” at the local lake launch doc last Summer, both in 2.0’s, and stopped to chat with them about the boats. I had never seen a Trak in the flesh and was gobsmacked at how nice they are (though I was first attracted to the pair because the pilot had a cherry red and black Gearlab GP just like mine).

I missed a chance to snag a 2.0 last year at a pretty nice discount (somebody who had pre-ordered on Kickstarter bailed out). But I had too many expenses associated with a real estate project to bite on another kayak at that point. Maybe down the road I’ll sell off some of the Pakboats and the Wisper and get a 2.0. But the problem is that every time I use one of my boats I love it too much to consider giving it up. I honestly do not have a favorite in the fleet.

@NotThePainter said:

But first, a question, do you really have to kneel? I’m sure you can sit but does that make you have less control? I love “skills improvement” part of boating but kneeling? I’m not sure I can do that for very long.

No. I sit most of the time. I have adjustable foot braces in the solo canoes that I sit in the most so that I have adequate power and control from the sitting position. I switch between sitting and kneeling. I wear Chota Mukluk Lites, which have very flexible sole and ankle, which makes getting feet under and out from under the seat relatively easy. These Mukluks are a snug fitting size 8, so they don’t take up much space anyway, compared with some folks with size 12 and up.

When I kneel, I use a 3/4" or 1" thick and soft kneeling pad that was sold by the now-defunct Bell canoe. It doesn’t slide around much, even when the inside of the boat is wet.

Have fun as you explore the world of canoeing.

@kayamedic said:
I do wish there were some mass marketed portage yokes designed for kayaks

Old town used to make a narrow wooden yoke that clamped onto kayak cockpit coamings. I own one. They are heavy.

Since my boat carries are usually less than 100 yards, more commonly less than 50 yards, I often carry the kayak backwards with the thigh braces resting on my shoulders, if the fit and balance of that particular boat are conducive to that approach.

@Glenn MacGrady said:

Double blading is fast and efficient but boring. A novice can do forward and reverse strokes within five minutes. Single blading is much more sophisticated and much, much more difficult to master, but gives me a lot more technical and aesthetic motion pleasure.

Thanks for the good post Glen. I would, however, suggest that canoeing with a single blade REQUIRES a more sophisticated stroke to even paddle in a straight line. Double blades allow paddlers to get by without any sophistication at all, but can achieve just as complicated maneuvers.

@falcon said:

@Glenn MacGrady said:

Double blading is fast and efficient but boring. A novice can do forward and reverse strokes within five minutes. Single blading is much more sophisticated and much, much more difficult to master, but gives me a lot more technical and aesthetic motion pleasure.

Thanks for the good post Glen. I would, however, suggest that canoeing with a single blade REQUIRES a more sophisticated stroke to even paddle in a straight line. Double blades allow paddlers to get by without any sophistication at all, but can achieve just as complicated maneuvers.

The double blade z sideslip is just about impossible for me… Plus I get a shower… A Z sideslip is a combination using momentum… do a drawing sideslip and then change the paddle angle to a prying sideslip… You can get two zs with some practice single blade…

And an inner gimbal with a double blade I don’t even want to try!

I failed to mention that I have been using a Greenland paddle for 20 yrs. Paddle blades that are cupped , spooned, splined or asymmetrical are not suited for side slipping or clean exits.

I picked up a vintage 220 cm “Walden Kayaks” branded Bending Branches wood break-down kayak paddle at a yard sale years ago that has worked very well with the Lady Bug (at least until I get less clumsy with the single blade). It has a narrower and longer blade than any of my “Euro” paddles though it is still wider than the GP’s – kind of a nice middle ground between the two. It is slightly spooned but just barely. Only weighs 5 ounces more than my 210 cm cedar GP. Pic below shows them side by side: