Opposite advice
I have pretty bad wrist problems - enough to keep me off an upright bike and relegated to recumbents. I put a hundred miles on in a week with a bent shaft paddle (Werner Cyprus) and I am fine. I do a four hour trip with a straight shaft paddle and I can be in trouble. It may just be my personal wrist malady (or it might be my imagination) but I find a bent shaft much easier on my beaten old body.
David
not really 'opposite adviceâ
re-read what I posted about bent shafts.
They do work for some. In your case for example.
In other cases they just add weight and price and are not needed. In some cases itâs just ppl who donât need them talking themselves into needing them after immersion in marketing soft sell. Not saying that is the case in your case. I support your choice to use and enjoy bent shaft paddles if they work for you. Can we agree that they donât work for everyone? just as straight shafts donât work for everyone?
If I were OP and had no known issues of wrist or hand, Iâd start w. a straight shaft. Why not start w. the simplest.
1 Like
Everyoneâs different
â Last Updated: Aug-28-13 5:25 PM EST â
As ravenwing said, if bent shaft works for you and you can't stand straight shafts, that's fine. But if you don't need a bentshaft, then why pay the penalty in money and weight?
Regarding recumbents, I too am "relegated" to them due to neck problems. My only regret is I didn't discover them earlier. They are superior to regular bikes in comfort and aerodynamics.
need?
Lots of us just slightly prefer bent shafts Nothing to do with need. The bent shaft in comfy, gives a bit of indexing so one knows slightly better what the blade angle is for rolls and braces. Just like the diamond loom of my Novorca GP.
My bent shaft Kalliste is slightly under 25 oz, so there is really not much of a weight penalty.
Another thought on bent
I donât know if the bent shaft helps with wrist issues or not but the bent shaft helped me learn to roll. Way back when I was learning to roll I was having the problem of keeping the correct blase angle through the roll, often leading to paddle dive/roll failure. One day I tried my buddyâs bent shaft paddle and could immediately feel the correct paddle orientation because of the bends in the shaft. From then on I owned my roll (and bought a bent shaft.) May be cheating but Iâll take it.
Addition to Smokey Paddlerâs comment,
Something I notice about the Ikelos vs. the Cyprus is that if Iâm paddlling with the wind, the Cyprus doesnât feel like Iâm propeling forward when paddling. When moving with the wind, the Ikelos feels more like it propels the boat. The Cyprus does not feel like enough paddle to move the boat quickly when going with the wind.
The catch on those paddles works great. It is a joy to use the Ikelos.
1 Like
As a past ACA instructor and a regular paddler for more than 45 years I can vouch that this review is solid and on the mark. Well said and to the point.
I bought a bent shaft carbon Kalliste because my wrists and forearms hurt, almost like carpal tunnel. Instant relief. No experience with any other bent shafts. Tip: REIâs annual 20% off sale.
There is nearly a consensus in this thread that a light paddle is preferable. Beyond that, the paddle becomes much more of a personal choice, often driven by paddling style and anthropomorphic factors.
In my case I have an arthritic left shoulder, supposedly bone-on-bone. Remarkably, it doesnât hurt while I paddle, but it does that evening. The pain is worse with some paddles and better with others. I use a low angle stroke with good torso rotation. Paddles that are the most merciful are my GP and my all carbon Nimbus Chinook Quill. The latter is an interesting paddle with a longer and narrower blade and worth a look.
Since I have no wrist issues, like straight shaft because I can change width occasionally to bring different muscle group into play, especially sweep strokes. Kalliste lightness is a selling point, and Camano is my 2nd choice. The blade cross section sold me. At moderate effort, both are close. When pushed, just like a hull, the Kalliste is superior - far less drag and turbulence Iâve alternated, Kalliste and Camano, to reach max speed. The Kalliste wins consistent by .2 mph, for what thatâs worth. I canât do an unbiased blind test, because itâs obvious when swinging the paddle. Pushing to the limit confirms the impression because you can feel the turbulence. Also agree the foam core make a subtle springy transition to the opposite stroke. Aqua has a paddle that reads like an equivalent to the Kallite, but the blade is like a Camano. For an additional $150.
I use a long low angle touring paddle, and have used paddles from 220 - 250 cm. I believe few people can use a 250 cm without wearing out. Agree they need the shorter paddles.
Also curious about any paddles superior to the Kalliste and reason they feel better.
Ikelos is better it moves you. Just because you have a big paddle doesnât mean you have to crank on it hard and tear yourself up. I can easily do low or high with an Ikelos. I have a Kalliste Iâll try tomorrow itâs been sitting for many years.
I have a
Kalliste forgot length 215?
Ikelos 205
Ikelos 215
Corryvreckan 210
Shuna 215 fiberglass
Corryvreckan has biggest blade tiny bit more splash because the back is not smooth like an Ikelos. No upward float like an Ikelos but itâs not that big of a deal.
I was going to try the Kalliste this will make me do it for sure. Probably a higher cadence to even just cruise at 4-4.5 mph. Be back tomorrow.
Paddling with the current and wing and fighting it on the way back the Corryvreckan let me average 4.5 mph over a 90 minute period.
PaddleDog2, you reminded me to looked up the Ikelos. While looking. I glanced at the hand size and a length chart; shaft diameter is good, length puts me at 230 cm for low angle. My 1st paddle was 220 cm. I switched up to 230c cm. Both felt like I had to shift to reach the water.
It appears the Ikelos is the same design as the Kalliste, but 110 sq in blade vs 99. Weight advertised as 26 oz compared to Kalliste 22 oz. [Probably based on the shortest length]. I stepped up to a Camano 240 cm 100 Sq in blade, 26 oz; (listed as a touring blade).
A shop recommended Kalliste touring and low angle style. I though I went from high angle to low, but one forum member questioned how I could use a 250. tried HA and conceded a 220 was more appropriate. I apparently ever did HA. Now I canât do HA due to shoulder injury.
As with biking, I read that higher cadence with thinner blade was less tiring. GPS showed my averages edge up. I went back to to a Camano when my 240 Kalliste went back to Werner. I used it one trip and ordered another Kalliste in 250 cm, so I could experiment. When my 240 cm came back, I didnât want to use it. I was spoiled. I did a 38.75 mile in 8 hrs 20 min @ 4.65 mph in a Tsunami using that paddle. I like the Kalliste for the smaller blade; it letâs me maintain 70-75 strokes a minutes and helps me manage with the longer length paddle. I plan to make a GP, but donât want to drop below a 99 sq in blade because it works for me. The Kalliste profile slips in/out virtually noiselessly if you focus on form.
Theyâre different. Ikelos is high angle; Kalliste is low angle - the blade is more elongated.
1 Like
I got back into kayaking last year after a 40 year hiatus. I went with a Current Designs Vision 140 as it seemed like a good boat for my age and the many lakes, ponds and slow rivers here in northern Vermont. It came with a 230 AB Stingray straight shaft which was okay but not the best choice for me, especially once I returned to my HA teenaged form. Toss in scarring from shrapnel back in my Marine Corps days that had me favoring one arm and the wrist pain started limiting my activities.
Iâd always wanted to try a bent shaft but the shops in my area donât have the option of trying them. All their rentals are straight shaft. Theyâd order one, but Iâd have to buy it first and the cost was a bit much for something I wasnât familiar with. A couple days ago I was on Facebook Marketplace and just for kicks searched on âbent shaft kayak paddle.â A carbon fiber Cyprus 210 posted ten minutes previously came up for half the price of a new paddle. I scored!
I took it out yesterday for four miles on a local lake. First impression: itâs really light! It fits my ergos well and lets me know right away if my form is slipping. The shaft grazing the side of the boat reminds me not to slouch. A drop in speed or a bit of fishtailing prompts me to use my torso. The longer straight shaft was much more forgiving, but by the end of the run I had zero wrist pain. Itâs likely the lighter weight played a big role in that, but I really like this paddle!
Glenlivit, you can pick up where you left off and hope you visit the Aqua/Werner post that has many answers. Theads seem to go on forever, but as with most posts, contributers strike a chord and make me revisit and reevaluate gear and techniques. Scrutiny surely reveals any chink in your armor. So say what you think, because you learn more if somebody proves youâre wrong. I like straight shaft, but need to try bent shaft to see if it rotates my shoulder - works for your hand.
Doggy Paddler, aknowledged and agree. From a design point, Ikelos/Kalliste look identical, meaning equal performance, but technically maybe not true. I thought I initially used high angle style, albeit with a shorter blade. I revisited HA when a member challenged my 250 paddle. After attempting, it was apparent I never paddled HA, so I turn to you for an explanation of HA technique to avoid misconceptions.
If my assumption is right. HA enters the water with the blade âtipâ breaking the surface. I would think that action is similar to a canoe stroke, except for hand placement (that makes me rethink my preference for a long canoe paddle in my post-shoulder injury condition).
The kayak style I use is arms locked, shoulder width on shaft, mid chest high. From center, I start instinctively (actually conditioned, like a march step) by dropping the left blade while rotating torso left. The blade âedgeâ contact the water, and while approaching max torso rotation, the blade begins to rise in a figure eight pattern as the right blade reaches an apex and rotates in a reverse mirrored action. Looking at hands on the shaft, the drawing hand grip is initially a light locked ring during rearward torsion rotation and the right hand slightly pushes. Mirror the action as the stroke reverses. The feather lightness of a carbon paddle facilitates a marshal arts style Kata (form). Weight difference in the 22-26 oz range is miniscule. So what does this have to do with the paddle?
The key to an efficient paddle is in the blade shape - one that cuts into the water, flows through the submerged period with minimal turbulence, then exits cleanly. I seen increased comments about wood GP or foam core paddles tending to spring out of the water at the end of the power cycle. When you get to that zone, you wonât need help picking a paddle. You get it!
More important than the paddle is efficient execution of the stroke cycle - elsewhere,&g Iâve described the motion as rocking a baby. Donât try to paddle; the blade merely travels through the water as it cycles. It should be incidental. Visualize rocking a baby to sleep. A properly designed paddle will find its balance point if held loosely during slow acceleration. Increase and ease the grip as you alternate the power phase. If you lock the blade in an attitude where you feel flutter, it will wear you out and bleed power by dumping water creating drag. At some point, force max effort to see the point where you can feel that turbulence. Like a boat, at some point it will fail to acceleration smoothly.
The blade, despite ad hype and clever descriptions, must be clean, front and back! Any projections such as a lump where the shaft attaches to the blade will disturb the flow; you will feel the bubbles and turbulence if you focus. Price doesnât fix a thing.
If you paddle on a pond or never force your boat, buy cheap. If you need efficiency in high surf or go long distance at high cadence. You learn to disregard the cost.
I saw my nephew paddling like he was in a pinball machine - He shouted, something is wrong with this boat. It wonât go straight. We went back and I paddled a boxed loop. Hmmm! Then I watched him paddle. His blade was contacting the water at 45° face up, with a white knuckle grip. Adopting the above technique, he managed to correct, and only resumed the zig zag on the final leg when he powered back to the beach.
If you watch a novice paddle from 1/2 mile away, the action looks like a twin bladed cleaver chopping onions on each side of the boat. The low angle techniques taps into the core muscles and leaves the shoulder muscles largely untapped. That resource is what I consider reserve power. That upper shoulder, back, chest mass is a huge power source that I use anerobically; itâs available in a finite way, so use it selectively to dodge ships. The last two miles of every trip is a full power effort. It not only uses every scrap of reserve energy, but also hones those unused resources so they donât atrophy. I also use them to catch someone or ride waves.
Please correct any part you feel isnât valid.
I think they are discontinued but if you can find them the Werner line is amazing. High angle paddling is better, more rotation, less steering left and right with every stroke so you remain straighter and go farther for the same effort.
I like the Werner Ikelios because itâs huge and I can go really fast but I am very fit. The Shuna is in the middle and my older son likes that one. My wife likes the Cyprus as itâs the smallest. When either my son or my wife use a bigger paddle their shoulder hurts. When I use theirs I feel like I am not going anywhere.
It also depends on cadence too. The worse/roughter the water you paddle the faster the cadence you might want so a smaller paddle is probably better.
Try before you buy, hard with the Werners whose business closed down last year from reports I hear.
Also suggest 2nd hand. Check classifieds, ebay. A brand new carbon paddle is $350-$550. I got all mine for maybe 60% of their brand new price used either as demos or online. Be patient.
I have paddled a rotomolded Tsunami 145 as well as the Stellar singles. That makes a huge difference in speed. I felt like going from a cheap Acquabound paddle to the Werners made the same difference. So if you were thinking of going composite but didnât want to pay that much OR you like the durability of rotomolded, get a carbon paddle and you will get the same performance difference. Both is better of course but everyone has different needs, likes, and budget.
Also remember that carbon is more fragile. Got mine stuck in a rock last year I didnât see and it cracked the paddle. The fix wasnât expensive but something to remember, carbon is very stiff and light which is GREAT for performance, but not so good for durability. Theyâre not fragile like a glass where if you hit it wrong it will crack and can take some impacts or abuse or even scraping bottom but you donât want to fee it a steady diet of abuse either as it certainly isnât plastic.
Fiberglass blades with carbon shaft is kind of a nice intermediate, you save most of the weight, get a lot of the stiffness but retain some durability and they are far less expensive, do consider that as well.
The common factor in all the Werner top tier paddles seems to be the blade profile. Touring or a big power paddle is personal. Both work if used as directed, depending on physiology. How many oz a paddle weighs often builds down to the weight of a hamburger.
Werner Paddles is very much still in business! They have had significant delays shipping product, especially carbon paddles with pandemic-related supply chain issues, huge demand, and staffing problems like everyone else. But they are definitely still around.
2 Likes
Bent shaft is a plan if the specifics of the bend work comfortably for your hand/arm. I only found one that ever did, on my WW H2O paddle. Do better with straight on Werner paddles.
When I sold kayaks and paddles I always used to advise sticking to straight shaft paddles unless the customer could try a bent shaft. Same advice for regular vs small shaft diameter.
For me, the Werner bent shaft works really well. I have never had wrist pain or issues, but I like the cross sectional shape of the bent shaft and as someone who tends to wander around on the paddle shaft the bends remind me where my hands should be. I have two, a 205 Cyprus and a 210 Athena (small blade) - the Cyprus is my spare paddle now and the Athena my primary. I wish they would make a smaller blade high angle paddle but for now the Athena is great and has relieved a lot of strain on my shoulders.