I went to take a break from reading this board to do some real work and... Kapow!
Seriously, I went back and read Squash's response to Steve's "criticism" and didn't find anything over the top. Indeed, Steve withdrew the major "criticism" of the seat which Squash may have missed. The rope thingie is in the air. The ratchet entrapment issue is up for debate.
I haven't seen the particular thigh hook strap set-up but I still think the "entrapment" issue is often over emphasized. Unless someone is wearing something in the lower body, e.g. booties with laces, that can get caught, I really don't see entrapment as a likely possibility.
Leaving my "tight" SOF aside with nothing inside to catch things, I still have more than several factory boats that I paddle, each with it's own do-dads, ratchets, pedals, etc. and, several with underdeck clips for a pump. I have never experienced even the slightest snaring/hooking of anything on a wet exit. In fact, even in a partial exit out of the cockpit, my head would pop out of the water with the aid of the PFD. The only possibility of a deadly entrapment would be shoelaces or straps caught on foot pegs that would keep the paddler firmly in the seated position in a capsize. The other possibility is a panicked paddler who have forgotten to leave out the skirt loop strap when getting the skirt on the rim. Even here, if the capsized paddler were to maintain his/her cool, most skirts can be popped by reaching/pinching/grabbing the skirt edges around the sides of the coaming.
Anyway...
Hey, Steve, you're an early bird like me. It's just that I have three hours on you to get my 2 cents in on the various threads.
sing
PS> Wooohooo... a major bruhaha coming up. Winds are kicking up. Squall line in the horizon. Paddlers are scratching their heads. Ride it out, or duck for cover?! :)
yeah 0530 comes early. something about getting older seems to get me up early.
FWIW in almost 20 years of being a professional paddler I have yet to see someone get caught up on something in their boat. I have ‘heard’ of a few instances, mostly sandals. I have seen some gnarly whitewater entrapments tho they had nothing to do with outfitting and everything to do with being ‘off line’.
But there is nothing like a BIG, open cockpit to make you feel safe (entrapment wise) and way EZ to get in and out. And nothing like a nice tight, gadget heavy cockpit to make you feel secure. It’s a fine tightwire balance act for the manufacturer/ designer, for sure.
Let’s slow it down. I own 2 Necky boats and I like them just fine. Are there things I’ve tweaked- sure. I’ve very rarely seen a kayak that didn’t need to be tweaked. The items mentioned are not design issues- they’re TWEAKS. Should Necky address them-probably. Was Squash a little defensive- maybe. Did Flatpick post incorrect information- yeah. He also conceded the points where he was wrong. Nothing to see here folks- move along.----Rich
That’s some statement- back it up. As far as I know Steve is a designer of a commercially sold kayak and one that is becoming pretty popular. That would make him a professional in anyones book. Why do you say you know that the Necky people do not consider him a professional?----Rich
Another entrapment possibility Rudder cables – foot between one and the hull.
This happened to me, not on a wet exit, but upon re-entering the kayak. I wrote a long ltr to Sea Kayaker Magazine describing what happened (several issues back), so I won’t rehash here.
I managed to free my foot while precariously balanced with body prone over the back deck but it was not easy, and it would have been impossible in any real “conditions.” I was just practicing wet exits and paddle float re-entries. If it were a real-life scenario, I probably would have capsized while trying to free the foot and drowned while hanging upside down by the strangled foot. I know some people carry knives for cutting line, but knives don’t cut SS cables.
There is a very cheap and simple way to prevent these cables from pouching out and trapping the foot, and that is to put a piece of pipe foam insulation (the stiffer foam, not the neoprene-like kind) over the cables. Make them short enough to allow full rudder movement but long enough to keep the cables from pouching out and lying in wait for a blind foot entering the kayak.
This entrapment is not highly likely to occur but if it does, it could kill someone.
Spike at Necky does. I have been sellin’ their boats for a bunch of years (as in professionally) and we get along just fine. We respect one another.
I would think that along with the design gig, my ACA ITE status and the fact that I own and operate a Paddlesport store (since '86) might be an indicater of my profession. But spray probably knows better…or not.
in all fairness to steve it is not quibbling to call a seat uncomfortable, and to say that hooks, or other cockpit hardware could cause entrapment.
P&H spent a lot of time and effort designing the seats in their kayaks, as a result their seats are THE most comfortable seats I have ever had the pleasure to kayak in. On my current boat, the foster silhouette, no time and effort went into the seat it is a flat glass pan, and it shows. It is uncomfortable.
Sea kayaking means that you may have to spend all day in the cockpit without a break, so the seat is very important.
Entrapment is also a pretty important issue. so I dunno, just cause you don’t like the source of the info doesn’t mean the info is wrong…
What this is really all about. I think Steve pretty much expressed it with the last sentence of his opening post. It is all about how this boat will fair against the Tempest 165. This was a biased review, written without much study. There was such a degree of misinformation that the General Manager of Necky had to step in.
that’s REALLY what you think? whew. you are way off base, dude.
It’s not about the 165. It’s about being excited to see another high quality, high performance boat that is FUN to paddle and will sell well in my shop.
FYI, the 165 is smaller and the 170 is bigger. Big different in size. Comparision will be somewhat moot.
“a biased review, written without much study”
Did I like said vessel? Did I enjoy my ride in said vessel? Was I impressed?
and where do you get “without much study”? because i didn’t know the seat was velcroed? Big fiz, I re-called that statement immediately.
Wow! Isn’t it great people are passionate about their activities! I have no problem with people taking pride in their work.
My original question on the thigh hooks was because they are so different from everything else on the market. Gotta look at all angles and I appreciate all the responses (not to mention the fun of seeing everyone get their dander up).
I do appreciate that the design has been out on WW boats for a while and that gives good experience. (Yeah, make sure you roll then it isn’t an issue.)
Thanks to Joe O’, Sing, Squash for the belief this isn’t a problem. Thanks to Steve for the caveat’s to that.
As far as cord thickness goes, I’m surprised the strenght of 3mm could be a problem if it isn’t abraided but it isn’t them most comfortable to grab. I have 3mm nightline for my bow perimeter line and 5 or 6 mm climbing cord for the rear. Has to be small enough to squeeze through the padeyes since I’m too lazy to install new ones. Car-topping, I tie the bow & stern tie downs to the metal bracket rather than to the toggle cord so the cord doesn’t factor in or get abraided (hey Necky, a little bigger “U” on the bow would help). Then again, I heard Steve had an interesting way of tying? down the T180 prototype last year
Would I buy a boat from Steve? You bet! Would I buy another Necky? You bet! Better yet, give me a Tempest 165 and a Chatham 16 and I’ll settle things once and for all (and be twice as happy)! I’ll even come pick them up.
well I thought I had an unbiased point of view to offer seeing as I was the one who outed steve on this board as the tempest designer. But if you don’t want to listen to me that’s fine.
I think his review was fair. And he even corrected himself when he found out new information. Admitting when you’re wrong goes a long way to making yourself appear knowledgeable and likeable.
End t/oggles/ 3mm Cord When the cord broke on the end toggle of the Chatham 18’ I was testing, it was a prototype boat. The holes through which the cord attaches the toggles to the kayak itself were not radiused. They had a sharper edge whhich could be what caused the problem on my test boat. I’d mentioned this to my rep at Necky and he thanked me for the feedback and said he would pass it on.
I have not yet seen the produciton version of the new composite Chathams but was assuming that this was rectified already? Anybody know for sure? Squash?
Other than that however, the Chatham performed well and is certainly a boat I’ll be paddling more soon!
One other note for those of you who do not know…I am affiliated with Necky Kayaks through sponsorship. I’m also REALLY looking forward to testing out Flatpicks designs one of these days too!
thanks what do you mean “SUV not dragster”,what would the T-170 be?
I agree 200% about using 3mm cord for toggle line and perimeter lines. 5mm is a good all around size. But those Necky/Ocean kayak handles are worth an award for comfort.
Current Designs has the smartest rigging set-up, textured deck,no screws or hardware all rigging goes through recessed plastic with hole in it. The cost for rigging is only the line and bungie.
SUV vs Dragster a quick way of saying it’s built for rough stuff and not necessarily a speed demon.
The Tempest family and most Brit style boats I call SUV’s. Sport Utility Vessels. You wouldn’t buy one to race, unless it was a Rock Garden race and I haven’t seen one yet!
Agreed on the Necky comfy handles. They’re even ‘padded’. Put 'em on with 4 or 5 mm and I’d be a happy camper.
I’m sure you would! Where exactly are you located at Steve?
Maybe I will drop by sometime…doubt if I’d be buying though, I’m also in the business as well as being sponsored by Necky. Might be getting a new Chatham 18’ soon. Have been paddling one of the Looksha II Race editions for most of the last year while chasing the endurance paddling records. Nice fast sea kayak but the chatham/ Tempest style of kayak is what I’d choose for touring. Always been a fan of the Brit. style of kayaks. The NDKs, P&H etc.
Nice to see more and more North American companies rolling out there kayaks along these lines now!
actually Portland, Oregon is where I hail from. we also have a store in Bend, a sweet town in central OR.
I think the popularity of this style of boat is very cool, having been paddling rough stuff and true sea conditions for years out west.
In reality, as much as many would like to think not, I am very excited about Necky’s new boats. Bring it on! It’s only going to grow the hi-performance end of the market more. Chatham/ Tempest/ Romany heck it’s no different than Ford/ Chevy/ Dodge.
good to have you ‘on board’ and stop by anytime you’re in the 'hood.
I can’t believe they didn’t radius them Sheesh. I even thought about that for the boat I’m building, and I am a complete newbie at building. And there’s no way I’d use such a skinny cord, either.
suvs which explains why everyone drives them,as long as they’re built on passenger car platforms they can make sense. Seeing the Scirrocco, then the Tempest and now the Chatham show up is great for folks who want something other than a truck based version of an SUV.
