@string said:
I gave up that hobby for the same reasons. Mostly the mess. Water is much nicer.
They seem to complement each other. A combination of hiking, archery, powder-burners as well as paddling basically opens up the door for all weather, 4 season excercise. I can’t be bothered to pump iron or hit the gym, and when I see a treadmill or excercise machine it makes me think of an attractive target (provided I am far enough to prevent ricochets) rather than something to use as intended. It’s soul crushingly boring, but get me outdoors and I’m all in.
This way no matter what the temps, precipitation levels or atmospheric conditions it can be done indoor, outdoor, tone up the whole body and keep me interested while getting some vitamin D and staying engaged in nature!
@string said:
I gave up that hobby for the same reasons. Mostly the mess. Water is much nicer.
They seem to complement each other. A combination of hiking, archery, powder-burners as well as paddling basically opens up the door for all weather, 4 season excercise. I can’t be bothered to pump iron or hit the gym, and when I see a treadmill or excercise machine it makes me think of an attractive target (provided I am far enough to prevent ricochets) rather than something to use as intended. It’s soul crushingly boring, but get me outdoors and I’m all in.
This way no matter what the temps, precipitation levels or atmospheric conditions it can be done indoor, outdoor, tone up the whole body and keep me interested while getting some vitamin D and staying engaged in nature!
But yes, black powder is for fireworks only.
I’m with you as far as four seasons outdoors and no way to a gym. Going to be doing some snow shoeing in no time!
I do like my black powder though. That and a longbow for archery.
Simpler is better.
@Paatit said:
Build one, marine plywood core glass, kit, plans or crazy. You invest so much into it that you’ll absolutely claim it is the perfect ONE that sit’s in the garage cuz it’s an heirloom. Good Hunting
I would consider building one, If I found just what I wanted. Mostly looking for ideas of other boats to try out and figure out what I really want though.
As for sitting in the garage, everything pretty I’ve ever bought was expected to preform the same as ugly would.
Never had a new truck that didn’t have pin stripes from the brush within a week.
I’m with you as far as four seasons outdoors and no way to a gym. Going to be doing some snow shoeing in no time!
I do like my black powder though. That and a longbow for archery.
Simpler is better.
Yes you can get a good custom longbow that shoots every bit as smooth, quiet and fast as a recurve and tends to be a bit lighter for ~$400ish dollars which is what a mid level to upper mid level factory bow that is never as good costs compared to well into the $1000 or more for a custom recurve. At the highest end the recurve always has a few more FPS but the longbow is lighter, easier to carry and draws a little eaiser. Recurve will always be a little bit faster but for 3-4x the price they can keep their 20fps speed difference.
@Paatit said:
Build one, marine plywood core glass, kit, plans or crazy. You invest so much into it that you’ll absolutely claim it is the perfect ONE that sit’s in the garage cuz it’s an heirloom. Good Hunting
I would consider building one, If I found just what I wanted. Mostly looking for ideas of other boats to try out and figure out what I really want though.
As for sitting in the garage, everything pretty I’ve ever bought was expected to preform the same as ugly would.
Never had a new truck that didn’t have pin stripes from the brush within a week.
Trust me don’t build. For all the time, money and resources most people end up with their first build being as heavy as plastic. And you don’t save a lot because when all the sawdust settles between the epoxy, and fiberglass and dozens if not hundreds of sandpaper sheets or attachments for your power sander and respirator masks and having made your house a hazmat place and lost use of your living room or garage the price gets fairly close to a composite. You might save ~1,000 to $2,000 depending on what you had in mind. What do you make per hour? Remember the average kit takes about 80-120 hours to assemble and about half that to varnish and finish.
If money is that tight honestly just buy a second hand composite which will cost about what you will spend on a build, maybe slightly more then you know 100% what you’re getting.
I went in with a friend with a build and it was so heavy that it turned out to be a useless barge. I hated it.
See in the gun world they talk about buy vs build your rifle. I still think BUY is better there because high quality stuff the last year or two has come down in price tremendously. You can get a 1/2 MOA 1,000 yard gun for less than $1,000 these days. But with kayaks the money, time and resources at stake are a lot more. If you look at this from a rational and logical perspective the scale says 99% BUY not build. Unless you like and are really good at working with wood I see no reason to bother. Trust me, I’ve been there!
Trust me don’t build. For all the time, money and resources most people end up with their first build being as heavy as plastic. And you don’t save a lot because when all the sawdust settles between the epoxy, and fiberglass and dozens if not hundreds of sandpaper sheets or attachments for your power sander and respirator masks and having made your house a hazmat place and lost use of your living room or garage the price gets fairly close to a composite. You might save ~1,000 to $2,000 depending on what you had in mind. What do you make per hour? Remember the average kit takes about 80-120 hours to assemble and about half that to varnish and finish.
If money is that tight honestly just buy a second hand composite which will cost about what you will spend on a build, maybe slightly more then you know 100% what you’re getting.
I went in with a friend with a build and it was so heavy that it turned out to be a useless barge. I hated it.
See in the gun world they talk about buy vs build your rifle. I still think BUY is better there because high quality stuff the last year or two has come down in price tremendously. You can get a 1/2 MOA 1,000 yard gun for less than $1,000 these days. But with kayaks the money, time and resources at stake are a lot more. If you look at this from a rational and logical perspective the scale says 99% BUY not build. Unless you like and are really good at working with wood I see no reason to bother. Trust me, I’ve been there!
I do know that building costs as much as a quality used boat. Look at Pygmy’s web site. Find what you like, start adding things like deck rigging, the bulkhead and hatches kit and so on. You will find yourself in the $1700 range pretty quickly and that isn’t including the supplies that you mentioned.
Building one would be a few reasons. Beauty of a wooden boat, The fun of building on (One of the reasons I love old cars), and if you can’t find a factory one as close to what you want as a kit.
I am leaning more towards buying though. As you said weight matters and most wooden boats are 45 pound range, if it’s built right and doesn’t end up with extra fiberglass!
Right now I’m loving the idea of an eddyline fathom. 50 pounds, high volume, hard chined (for a plastic boat), beautiful, tough and ready to paddle. I may do a skin on frame to satisfy my build desires. Cheaper, super light, should be fun to paddle but not really suited to my camping needs, but that’s a different subject.
In a carbon fiber boat has anyone ever asked you if you built it?
In a light weight composite are you not worried about damage because you know you can fix it?
Are you ready to start building one better than the last one?
@Overstreet said:
In a carbon fiber boat has anyone ever asked you if you built it?
In a light weight composite are you not worried about damage because you know you can fix it?
Are you ready to start building one better than the last one?
Building is not for everyone.
Definitely.
It’s easy to see a beautiful wooden boat and get all starry eyed; I used to. Given how unpleasant and ultimately disappointing the building process was when I see wooden boats I think of how aggravating the process was, all the money and time I spent, now to me wood looks repulsively ugly as it’s loaded with memories of enormous setbacks. And my friend who did most of the work was a good at working wood as well as had some training in boat building too. Never again!
After seeing what a fiasco it turned into I am 100% for sure building your own wasn’t for me but after having dealt with the number of barriers, obstacles and frustrations this process involves I am convinced the number of people who are cut out for it is very small. Just look at how few wooden boats we all encounter and how few companies make wood kits vs all the plastic, composite and inflatables all over the place.
Not urinating on the wood people’s parade, just providing a realistic point of the drawbacks of building wood to OP, the list of which is enormous as compared the rather short and difficult to attain list of advantages that wood has to offer.
After seeing what a fiasco it turned into I am 100% for sure building your own wasn’t for me but after having dealt with the number of barriers, obstacles and frustrations this process involves I am convinced the number of people who are cut out for it is very small. Just look at how few wooden boats we all encounter and how few companies make wood kits vs all the plastic, composite and inflatables all over the place.
Not urinating on the wood people’s parade, just providing a realistic point of the drawbacks of building wood to OP, the list of which is enormous as compared the rather short and difficult to attain list of advantages that wood has to offer.
For sure the work in building a boat isn’t for everyone, but some of us enjoy that type of work.
I load my own ammo, brew my own beer, fletch my own arrows, work on the house do about anything working on pre computer cars and what has to be done on computer rigs and so on. It’s enjoyable for some people.
As for large companies not making wooden boats, the materials are substantially more than a bucket full of plastic pellets to make a rotomold boat and the man hours involved would make it too expensive to sell. I do believe that if someone could turn out something like the Pygmy Arctic Tern 17, the Chesapeake light craft 17 or some of the other kits out there, and sell it near what a comparable mass production boat costs, they would be big sellers.
I’m not sure if building a wooden boat is in my future, but that has more to do with figuring out if one of the wooden designs is more right for my next boat than considering the time to build it.
I am however thinking of a skin on frame boat over the winter. I have no illusion about it becoming my favorite boat due to the obvious limitations of the type of boat, but I think building one could be fun and I’m sure paddling it would be.
For sure the work in building a boat isn’t for everyone, but some of us enjoy that type of work.
I load my own ammo, brew my own beer, fletch my own arrows, work on the house do about anything working on pre computer cars and what has to be done on computer rigs and so on. It’s enjoyable for some people.
As for large companies not making wooden boats, the materials are substantially more than a bucket full of plastic pellets to make a rotomold boat and the man hours involved would make it too expensive to sell. I do believe that if someone could turn out something like the Pygmy Arctic Tern 17, the Chesapeake light craft 17 or some of the other kits out there, and sell it near what a comparable mass production boat costs, they would be big sellers.
I’m not sure if building a wooden boat is in my future, but that has more to do with figuring out if one of the wooden designs is more right for my next boat than considering the time to build it.
I am however thinking of a skin on frame boat over the winter. I have no illusion about it becoming my favorite boat due to the obvious limitations of the type of boat, but I think building one could be fun and I’m sure paddling it would be.
Good to know where you stand, building your own may indeed be for you if you like the hobbyistic aspect of tinkering.
The key element is time. Someone who knows what a fiasco my wood venture was told me when asked about skin on frame that it was an even deeper rabbit hole, take it for what it’s worth at face value.
The good news is that there is a mass produced version of the Pygmy Arctic Tern 17 and the Chesapeake light craft 17 and the like. It’s called Stellar Kayaks. I’m not kidding, it almost feels like you’re on a weak powerboat, and you’ll zoom past motorboats all the time in no wake zones. They are that light, efficient, fast and depending on layup resilient if you’re careful with how you handle them. They’re also pricey, but very cheap to fix in the Advantage layup.
It’s easy to see a beautiful wooden boat and get all starry eyed; I used to. Given how unpleasant and ultimately disappointing the building process was when I see wooden boats I think of how aggravating the process was, all the money and time I spent, now to me wood looks repulsively ugly as it’s loaded with memories of enormous setbacks. …
Basically building any boat is likely repulsive to you. You just haven’t done it enough to dislike orange peel, sanding molds, blushing fiberglass, carbon fiber fraying, oil canning, etc………… Bet you didn’t build your house either……… I understand it better than you know. And I really think it’s right that you should buy something already built. Wood “repulsive” … Just don’t go on and on cause you aren’t a builder, forgive the wood.
Some people build some don’t . True some see a wood boat and think it would be great to build one and have no idea of the time or effort or skill. That’s cause they look at it with emotion. Otherwise they see the faults in the boat, the drips, the drags, the sanded through the ply, etc, etc. All they see is the romance. And good for them. We need more people willing to try things out.
The good news is that there is a mass produced version of the Pygmy Arctic Tern 17 and the Chesapeake light craft 17 and the like. It’s called Stellar Kayaks. I’m not kidding, it almost feels like you’re on a weak powerboat, and you’ll zoom past motorboats all the time in no wake zones. They are that light, efficient, fast and depending on layup resilient if you’re careful with how you handle them. They’re also pricey, but very cheap to fix in the Advantage layup.
I only remember 16 and 18 foot fiberglass stellar boats, but I will check them out tonight out of curiosity. If I could buy a Arctic tern 17 without having to build it, I would probably go that way if the price was within the realm of what my budget was.
I know what you mean about the speed of the design. I had my Chesapeake out weekend before last on a camping trip and there is about a 2 1/2 mile little section of no wake zone river that connects the lake where I put in to the lake where I was camping. A little bayliner was putting along and passed me near the entry to the river but by the end I was within two or three hundred yards of them. That’s with my boat loaded to the hilt and riding low in the water. Empty I believe I would have gotten to the upper lake ahead of them! Great boat, other than the fact that it holds about half the gear of my fiberglass boat and you feel the load a lot more when paddling.
Basically building any boat is likely repulsive to you. You just haven’t done it enough to dislike orange peel, sanding molds, blushing fiberglass, carbon fiber fraying, oil canning, etc.
I understand it better than you know. And I really think it’s right that you should buy from some other person that built a boat.
No I generally don’t like things that other people build. Big companies are better especially now the last few years with advances in manufacturing. More research, more resources, more man hours and better access to high quality material at bulk pricing. Custom jobs are also not liquid in terms of resale either and depending on how custom or unusual the project becomes the more you are beholden to their creator, but I agree, building is NOT for certain people and I am at the top of that list!
The only real advantage that wood boats have other than their looks is they can be fully 100% restored to new condition without any gains in weight whereas composite boats gain a little with every repair. But you pay a huge premium in time, especially if you have to build more than one wood boat to “get it right”. The million dollar question (no pun intended!!!) is what is your time worth? The saddest thing is that if you ever wanted to turn around and re-sell a perfectly built, ultralight wood boat the price is less than the cost of brand new kit and materials because no one knows for sure how good it will be so it’s not liquid. You get zero for the hundreds of hours you spent building it.
I know about oil canning. My plastic boats started doing that when I started storing stuff on top of them years ago. Despite having done everything you’re not supposed to do to a kayak because years ago I didn’t know better, it doesn’t seem to affect performance. Now I know better though. The composites are nicer though but you have to be more careful.
The good news is that there is a mass produced version of the Pygmy Arctic Tern 17 and the Chesapeake light craft 17 and the like. It’s called Stellar Kayaks. I’m not kidding, it almost feels like you’re on a weak powerboat, and you’ll zoom past motorboats all the time in no wake zones. They are that light, efficient, fast and depending on layup resilient if you’re careful with how you handle them. They’re also pricey, but very cheap to fix in the Advantage layup.
I only remember 16 and 18 foot fiberglass stellar boats, but I will check them out tonight out of curiosity. If I could buy a Arctic tern 17 without having to build it, I would probably go that way if the price was within the realm of what my budget was.
I know what you mean about the speed of the design. I had my Chesapeake out weekend before last on a camping trip and there is about a 2 1/2 mile little section of no wake zone river that connects the lake where I put in to the lake where I was camping. A little bayliner was putting along and passed me near the entry to the river but by the end I was within two or three hundred yards of them. That’s with my boat loaded to the hilt and riding low in the water. Empty I believe I would have gotten to the upper lake ahead of them! Great boat, other than the fact that it holds about half the gear of my fiberglass boat and you feel the load a lot more when paddling.
They only have 16 and 18’ singles but they have a fantastic 17 foot tandem I just bought, the ST17. Less stable than the plastic boats for sure, but only if you make mistakes on your technique. It’s light so you get blown around a lot more in the wind, but the rudder helps with that. These are relative negatives vs the plastic boats, but the efficiency, speed and ease are so much greater you’re not giving up that much initial stability but you’re getting a huge performance boost. Also have their packboat, different ball of wax but again deliciously light, easy to paddle and efficient.
Sharpsrifle…… wife and I were at dead river marina restaurant leaving from lunch. Dead river is central Florida. The Dead river is no wake zone and full of power boats. We left in the Valley Etain and the Cheasapeak 17 and pulled out and passed a couple of boats doing the no wake thing. They can move well.
For a wood design now done in glass look at Turning Point Boat Works. Joey Schott has just put the Petrel Play to glass and is taking orders. It took him three years to get the mold right. The boat is nice and quite responsive. Surfs well. Paddles well and keeps up with the group of 17 ft sea kayaks with a good paddler. It is however a play boat at 14 ft. . You sound like you’re looking for a touring boat.
@Overstreet said:
Sharpsrifle…… wife and I were at dead river marina restaurant leaving from lunch. Dead river is central Florida. The Dead river is no wake zone and full of power boats. We left in the Valley Etain and the Cheasapeak 17 and pulled out and passed a couple of boats doing the no wake thing. They can move well.
For a wood design now done in glass look at Turning Point Boat Works. Joey Schott has just put the Petrel Play to glass and is taking orders. It took him three years to get the mold right. The boat is nice and quite responsive. Surfs well. Paddles well and keeps up with the group of 17 ft sea kayaks with a good paddler. It is however a play boat at 14 ft. . You sound like you’re looking for a touring boat.
Yes, high volume. I’ve got a fiberglass boat that spoiled me with it’s storage. Since you have a Chesapeake you know what it’s like. I took mine out and couldn’t bring all my camping gear. I HAD TO LEAVE MY COFFEE POT!! lol My hope is to find something as fun to paddle as that boat but able to take me out for an extended trip.
Poor me……… Probably going to end up test paddling a bunch of boats to narrow it down and renting the ones that seem like they may fill the bill. The Chesapeake taught me how much differently a boat can paddle loaded so I would like to load up a boat I’m thinking about and take it out.
I need to figure out what my fiberglass boat is. I should get a few detailed pictures and measurements and post it on here. Someone else on here has probably owned the same boat.
@Overstreet said:
Sharpsrifle…… wife and I were at dead river marina restaurant leaving from lunch. Dead river is central Florida. The Dead river is no wake zone and full of power boats. We left in the Valley Etain and the Cheasapeak 17 and pulled out and passed a couple of boats doing the no wake thing. They can move well.
For a wood design now done in glass look at Turning Point Boat Works. Joey Schott has just put the Petrel Play to glass and is taking orders. It took him three years to get the mold right. The boat is nice and quite responsive. Surfs well. Paddles well and keeps up with the group of 17 ft sea kayaks with a good paddler. It is however a play boat at 14 ft. . You sound like you’re looking for a touring boat.
Yes, high volume. I’ve got a fiberglass boat that spoiled me with it’s storage. Since you have a Chesapeake you know what it’s like. I took mine out and couldn’t bring all my camping gear. I HAD TO LEAVE MY COFFEE POT!! lol My hope is to find something as fun to paddle as that boat but able to take me out for an extended trip.
Poor me……… Probably going to end up test paddling a bunch of boats to narrow it down and renting the ones that seem like they may fill the bill. The Chesapeake taught me how much differently a boat can paddle loaded so I would like to load up a boat I’m thinking about and take it out.
I need to figure out what my fiberglass boat is. I should get a few detailed pictures and measurements and post it on here. Someone else on here has probably owned the same boat.
@Overstreet said:
Maybe its not the boat but the camping gear that is “wrong”.
Weight makes a huge difference, not in top speed but in overall handling. It’s not just moment of inertia, but also how much water is drawn which really changes the hull profile in the water. It also makes you less susceptible to wind but in the end I find that kayaks are less tippy but more prone to wind effects if more loaded. For example when I am in a double with one of my sons which weigh 100-105lbs or my wife who is 145ish lbs or a friend who is in the 190-200lb range I feel this difference even without anything in the storage compartments.
The plastic double (Northstar) is fine in wind regardless who is in it. The Stellar double is easier to manage in wind with a full size adult and tends to paddle in circles without applying rudder if one of my sons is in there which amounts to a weight difference of 50-100lbs.
So I would add that you should bring weights or something to simulate the intended loading of the boats you rent because it’s very well that you could paddle something that feels exactly how you want unloaded, but then you load it and it doesn’t feel how you want. Or you might inadvertently paddle something you don’t like unloaded when in fact it’s the one that handles how you want when it’s loaded.
@Overstreet said:
Maybe its not the boat but the camping gear that is “wrong”.
Yes, buying some expensive, compact and light backpacking gear would help the boat out but I have another boat that hauls my gear fine so looking for a boat that hauls the gear and has characteristics I like seems reasonable. I like to have as comfortable of a camp as I can when I’m out. I’m not doing long dangerous condition trips so I really believe there is a boat that hauls what I want but is a bit more fun and nimble than my fiberglass boat and reacts a bit less to the load.
So I would add that you should bring weights or something to simulate the intended loading of the boats you rent because it’s very well that you could paddle something that feels exactly how you want unloaded, but then you load it and it doesn’t feel how you want. Or you might inadvertently paddle something you don’t like unloaded when in fact it’s the one that handles how you want when it’s loaded.
Actually if I find something that looks promising, renting it and paddling it both loaded and unloaded is the plan. Probably the actual gear since how things fit into the hatches and available space helps determine the weight distribution. An ideal distribution of weight isn’t always easy when you start to account for what fits where.
Again, if this was for a serious ocean going adventure I would be talking about getting the gear that works with the boat rather than the other way around, and if I don’t find a boat that does what I want, the gear may get upgraded or I may just use the high volume boat I do have and not worry about it.
I have a boat that performs very well for camping. I am just hoping to find one that does the job and is more of a pleasure to paddle.
