Thanks for the offer cooldoctor 1.
I’ll keep that in mind. You don’t know the joys of solo canoe paddling, so you couldn’t know that a solo kayak can’t be substituted easily for a solo canoe. Someday I’ll let you try the Summersong or the Slipper and you just might be drawn in to the world of us bi-paddlers.
I don’t think that my wife would allow me to sell one of the Castines because it would split up our pair of yellow twin Castines and she might not even attempt to go solo in any other boat. It’s the appeal of us being in matching, “cute” boats.
The Calabria definately seemed to be faster than the Castine on the shallow, smooth water canal, but the Castine appeared to have some advantage on the deeper and more textured water of the river. I’d still like to see if I can keep up with you and Bruce in your Calabrias easier if I’m paddling my Isere.
Thanks for the offer. I’ll keep it in mind as spring approaches.
Does narrower beam = easier paddling?
If so, 24" beam would mean less reach to the water than 28" beam and blade entry angle could be more vertical with less effort on the narrower hull than with the wider hull. Less reach to the water and easier to keep the blade entry more vertical to aid tracking and more comfortable for long trips?
I notice that while paddling the Summersong, which is only 23" at the gunwales, I still have to reach quite a bit to have a very vertical entry angle or the blade drags along the bubbled out side of the hull due to the significant tumblehome. I don’t notice blade dragging on the side of the hull as much on the Slipper, which is 27" at gunwale, because I already have to reach out just to get the paddle over the gunwale.
Is a narrower hull likely to be more comfortable for a smaller paddler even if is isn’t any faster?
Does a narrower solo hull facilitate better paddling form?
I know that I feel more comfortable paddling my 28" wide solo canoes than I did paddling my 32" and 34" wide tandem canoes from the center position.
Maybe the ease of paddling the narrower hull is justification enough for acquiring the Packer, even if it isn’t any faster or more efficient than the Summersong or the Slipper. Maybe it would be more efficient and comfortable for me just because it would fit me better at 5’6" and 150 lbs.
Has anyone out there (other than the seller and the Clipper sales rep) actually paddled the Packer?
Canoe v Kayak.
Yanoer, you;re indeed right, I have no idea if a slim line canoe is fast or slow. I have only kayak experience. I am planning rolling training (go the videos yeah) and more this springtime, so my kayaking will be getting more in depth-- I am educating myself. But I know little about canoes. You seem to be proficient in particular at canoeing. I agree with your splitting the Castines comment; I have the two paired Capris and would not purposely split them. True enough.
By the way, I was trying to eat at the Beef House with my wife today (had some business in COvington, IN) and that Wabash River in Covington is fabulous looking! It is only 45 miles from C-U, and was wide and pretty looking from the highway. I am going to research that one.
The Wabash usually doesn’t freeze
and is open for paddling most winters. I’ve only been on a section that started about 15 miles south of Covington.
Yanoer is SICK and INFECTIOUS
Geez, how many people on this board are just plain sick???
I thought I was the only one with this disease. How many canoes (kayaks) does a guy need?
A: "Only one...more."
I own the Summersong, Shockwave, Wildfire, Autumn Mist, MR Liberty, Oscoda Loon, Merlin II, Wabash Valley Merlin, etc., etc. Since I'm married, I can't paddle more than one woman (really), but I can paddle numerous canoes/kayaks.
This said, it is hard to beat the speed of the Summersong. I'd say the Shockwave may be slightly faster, as is the Grasse River XL.
I don't see how the Packer could be faster. I don't see how it could be stable, either, especially for a moderately-sized guy.
I also own a Mike Galt BJX Special which is 17 feet long and 24 3/4" wide. It is somewhat tippy, but maybe not as fast as the Yost boats...
Glenn
Just bought a Bell Magic. Anyone got any liquid water? Mine's all hard and smooth...
Wildwater, our sickness is very scary!
I was willing to drive 14hrs to try out a boat that I’d never heard of and one that no one in this forum seems to have ever paddled and pay for it with money that should be going to paying off credit card debt. The only thing that prevented me from being on the road righ now to pick it up is the fact that I’m physically run down and too tired to make that 760 mile round trip by myself today. I was hoping that the seller would offer to meet me half way, but they didn’t offer and I didn’t ask out right for them to do so.
Back on topic, do you percieve that your 24.75" wide BJX is easier to paddle than the wider hulls because of the narrower beam? Does it feel more comfortable to paddle since you don’t have to reach as much to put the paddle in the water? Does the narrower hull encourage/allow better form? Does the narrower hull seem like it is less wear & tear on your body on a long day of paddling? I ask these questions because it sure seems easier to used good form in my 24" wide Phoeix Isere kayak than in my wider Old Town Castine or Poke Boat kayaks.
Does the narrower hull allow a more vertical paddle stroke and does that more vertical stroke result in better tracking with fewer corection strokes?
I don’t percieve my Summersong as being much, if any faster than my Slipper (which is very similar to your Liberty), but don’t have a GPS to check it with, only my perception of speed and how long it takes me to get around our local lake. My paddling technique may be to blame, I’m sure that you have much better technique than I do. I’ve only been paddling solo canoes for a couple years after paddling mostly solo kayaks. And it’s just this year that I’ve been using mostly single blade canoe paddles instead of my kayak paddles in my canoes. With me paddling, my 14’9" long and 24" wide Phoenix Isere kayak gets me around the local lake faster and with less fatigue than any of my other boats. My paddle may be a factor also. I just got a decent bent shaft paddle this summer (Sawyer Manta) and it’s blade surface is much larger than the Zaveral’s that most people use in the Summersong. I just received a used Barton carbon fiber paddle last week and am anticipating trying it soon, maybe today if the local lake isn’t frozen. The Barton has a smaller blade face than the Manta, but is larger than a Zaveral. I’d probably take my Slipper today instead of the Summersong because the Slipper is lighter and easier to handle on slippery lake and river banks than my Summersong is. Your Summersong is much lighter than mine.
On the subject of liquid water, cooldoctor1 said that the Wabash river down by Covington, IN was looking very inviting yesterday. My understanding is that it stays liquid through most normal winters. That would probably be about a 4 hour drive for you from southern MI.
Thanks for your insights. I’ll have to wait until Christmas vacation to try out the Packer if it’s still available since I didn’t go today.
Correct Observations re:Paddling Narrow
Generally, you should have somewhat easier time of getting good technique with narrower kayaks/ canoes.
You do need to relax a little. Just enjoy canoeing/kayaking. If you’d like to run up and try out some of my canoes/kayaks, feel free to.
I’m an avid paddler, and I sell canoes and kayaks in Coldwater, Michigan, often ones I don’t WANT to sell (because I have so damn many).
Don’t worry. There will be many fine boats around for a long time. Pay off some credit card debt, then come purchase some of my boats.
Glenn
What are some other narrow solo canoes?
The Packer is the narrowest that I am aware of other than racing boats, but I certainly don’t have extensive exposure to or knowledge about what’s available in solo canoes other than the main stream brands like Wenonah, Old Town, Bell and Mohawk. I don’t think that they have any boats of similar dimensions to the Packer.
This is the only used boat of these dimensions that I can remember seeing advertised in the couple years that I’ve been scanning the classifieds. That’s why I am feeling somewhat compelled to go for this one before somone else does. I can’t afford the $2000 price for a new one (which should be obvious, since I stated earlier that I really can’t easily afford the used price).
Are there other options for boats with similar dimensions to the Packer? Am I wrong about the scarecity of used boats of this type in the market?
I’ll survive if I don’t get this Packer, but I’ll always wonder what it would be like to paddle it.
Thanks again for your insights and encouragement Wildwater.
Anybody out there paddle a Packer?
I’m referring to the Clipper Packer solo canoe, not the NFL team or their fans.
Looks Like a Nice Canoe
I just don’t know how it could be exceptionally stable. Is it the kevlar version? What’s it weigh? There are no review on p.net. How much does (she) want for it? I’ll sell you my BJX if you want narrow. Is hers in good shape. How big a guy are you (height and weight, smartass).
Glenn
I’m 5’6" and about 150 lbs.
I would’t expect the Packer to be exceptionally stable, but I don’t need exceptionally stable, just stable enought that I don’t dump it with every little weight shift. If it’s any where near as stable as the Summersong or Slipper, that would be good enough. I won’t be fishing out of it or anything.
The seller says it’s a 1999 model kevlar layup that weighs 32 lbs. They say they paid $1200 for it and are asking $750. $750 is a lot of money to me, but I’m still looking for a solo canoe that I like a lot, not just one that’s good enough to use until I get one that I’ll like better. The Summersong and Slipper are both nice boats to paddle, and are good enough for many purposes, but neither really blows my skirt up. I’m still getting to know them. Maybe I’ll learn to love them. They have very different handling characteristics.
From the two pictures they emailed me, the boat appears to be in good condition. I haven’t seen any pictures of the bottom and they haven’t responded to my request for pictures of the bottom. They say that there are only minor scratches in gel coat and that none of the cloth is exposed and that there aren’t any cracks and no repairs or scratches.
I don’t know anything about the BJX that you have, but I don’t think I’m interested in any solos over 16’.
Thanks for the offer to let me paddle some of your boats. I may take you up on that offer sometime next summer.
Keep the input on the Packer coming.
Thanks.
24" at gunwales, not max
According to the Canoe&Kayak buyers guide, the max width is 27 1/2". The 24" width is the width at the gunwales.
Shockwave
I have heard a lot about the Shockwave. How does it compare to a WENONAH Voyager?
The Clipper web site says a beam of 24"
for the Packer. Either the Clipper web site or the Canoe&Kayak buyers guide are wrong. I’ll give Clipper a call Monday to verify the specs. I just looked in my buyers guide and observed that the listed width measurements on several of the Clipper boats are different than what the Clipper web site shows. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Clipper could improve their web site by listing both max beam and gunwale width, that would greatly reduce the likelihood of misunderstandings of the specs.
The picture that the seller emailed me does show that the Packer does have a couple inches of tumblehome, but that doesn’t tell me what the max width is.
If the Packer max beam is 27.5", then the main advantage it would have over my other solo canoes is it’s lighter weight and that alone probably isn’t enough incentive for me to buy it. With widths of 24/27.5, it would resemble a shorter version of the Summersong and I’m not really interested in that right now.
If it is 27.5" wide, then I’m glad that I didn’t make the trip down there today. That would have been a huge waste of time and gas money.
Thanks again for pointing that out.
How 'Bout a Magic???
I just purchased a Bell Magic.
I might take your Summersong in trade.
For p.net’s sake, I’d probably list in for g.p.'s.
Anyway, the Magic weighs about 29 lbs.
Agree with beam thing. If beam is 27 1/2, it would be more like a short magic if no rocker; more like a short merlin II if some rocker. NOT exceptionally fast if 27 1/2" wide…
Glenn
Is that Magic faster than the Summersong
? Or just much lighter? I’ve never paddled a Magic, just looked at them on the showroom floor at Carl & John’s Paddling in Madison, WI.
How would you describe the difference in handling characteristics between your Magic & the Summersong. I wouldn’t trade the Summersong for anything that tracks less well than the Summersong.
Lighter weight would be much appreciated, but I guess that the cheaper and healthier alternative would be to start exercising and lifting weights again so that a 60 lb canoe doesn’t feel dangerously heavy to carry.
Thanks for letting me know of that option.
Max beam 27.5", gunwale width 24".
I just got off the phone with Joe at Clipper and he said that the Canoe&Kayak listing is correct for the Packer. This means that the boat is quite a different animal than I was originally thinking. Now I have to decide if I want to make that 14hrs round trip and spend the money for the kind of boat that it really is, rather than for the boat that I thought it was.
Thanks to everyone for their input and insights while trying to help me sort this out.
Voyager Has More Volume/Stability
The Shockwave is a racing-type boat. I didn’t like the Voyager 'cause it got blown around. With a load, however, I’ve heard excellent things about them for large lake chains.
Shockwave is fast. A bit spooky in chop. A kneeler’s canoe, I feel.
I said "I JUST got the Magic"
Haven’t had it out on the ice. I have, however, had it on a carpeted basement floor. With the Summersong next to it, the two seemed about the same. Neither canoe would move no matter how hard I paddled. Both the primary and the secondary were rock solid.
All kidding aside, I’m going to paddle the Summersong, Shockwave, and Magic in the spring to see which one I like best. Then, I’m going to sell one of them (and cry like a baby).
Glenn
How do you choose which chile to give
away? Those are tough decisions. If I buy the Packer, I might have to let go of either the Summersong or the Slipper. Or I could let go of my 31.5" wide 16’ long Moore Canoe Co. Ladybug tandem, which hasn’t been in the water for two years because it’s too tippy for my wife to paddle with me and I rarely tandem with anyone else. I’m still waiting to paddle it with someone else who wants to go fast.
Tough choices, but storage space is finite.