Clueless about kayak racing (with questions that show how clueless I am!)

Advice
#1

Hi all. Now that I have a brand-spanking new login to this site, I figured I’d ask my first question. : )

So…I’m a guy in my early 50’s. Started kayaking just before COVID (so I’m not TECHNICALLY one of the bazillions who picked it up during COVID). Paddle a Sitka LT (love it because it’s light enough to carry on my own, get on and off the car easily, blah, blah, blah). I think it’s just under 15’. I live in New England but unless the waters freeze, I go out 2-3 times a week year-round on area rivers, Boston Harbor or the bay on Cape cod (in summer). Generally I try to do 6-7 miles each time out there. I use Paddle Logger on my Apple Watch as a GPS and tend to do about 12:20-12:40 per mile (if it’s flat on the bay, it’s that range for every mile…if I’m on a river in the area it might be 14:00 per mile upstream and 11:00 down…that kinda thing).

I’m intrigued at the thought of getting into racing but…

…I have ZERO clue if what I’m doing now indicates that in a faster kayak I would actually be ok racing or make a total fool of myself;
…I am not even sure if the transition to paddling a racing kayak is “slightly different” to “mind-bogglingly different so don’t try unless you have CRAZY balance” (which id don’t);
…or maybe there are races where people paddle less competitive kayaks and I could use my Sitka…in which case again I’m curious if my workout pace indicates that I COULD race or not.

If this question is ridiculous, just ignore it or respond with “ummm…this makes no sense. Ask a different question.” And if it’s the latter, I’ll just be happy that I’m an anonymous no name on this site and you don’t know who I am! : )

thx for reading and happy paddling to one and all

#2

Welcome to the site.

I’m not into racing kayaks or canoes though the one race I participated in I managed a 2nd place in a Wenonah advantage solo canoe. I am more into exploring, nature observation, and camping from canoes and kayaks. I also like a bit of surfing and developing paddle skills.

I do know there are often different kayak classes. So, you could probably enter in one that would be a fit for your kayak. The best way to find out if you are competitive would be to enter a race. Don’t let how you finish make you feel foolish. Enjoy yourself and talk with those that have been racing for a while. Fast boats will generally be longer and narrower. A wing paddle is what dedicated racers use. You may want to invest in one if you become serious about racing. I’m not up on the speeds needed to be in the top 3.

#3

Kayak racing is pretty chill. Run by volunteers, no one is making any money. There are some serious people racing, but most go out for the fun and challenge. One of my coworkers races out here in California, and he knows exactly where he will place in his category/age group with the 3-4 people that may be there depending on who shows. He isn’t going to win unless the faster folks don’t show. But he isn’t there to win.

This seems to be the race org in your area: https://www.neckra.org/. Maybe just head out and watch a race. Or enter one of the flat water races and give it a go. There does seem to be some races that have “touring” classes, which is what you would likely be in right now.

1 Like
#4

Paddle Boston ( formerly Charles River Canoe & Kayak) host weekly informal races on the river near its Newton Boathouse. Sounds like a good way to get an intro to the sport.

https://paddleboston.com/fitness/wednesday-night-races/

PS. you can also demo racing oriented boats there for a minor fee if you really get into it. I brought my Epic V7 surfski from them although my interest is in downwind surfing and not racing.

-sing

#5

Was that you at the Blackburn Challenge in Gloucester this past weekend. Someone was paddling a Sitka in the Sea Kayak Class.

Longer waterline will give you a higher potential top end speed and overall greater efficiency.

You can race what you have in the Sea Kayak Class but 17+’ sea kayaks are going to pull ahead erg for erg. You don’t need a surfski to race and while a 21’ surfski at 17" wide will go faster it’s more tiring on long distances, compared to a sea kayak or touring kayak that doesn’t demand as much from the kayaker to stay upright in conditions.

See the SoundRowers.org boat classification guidelines. Many races use that.

Go to paddleguru.com or neckra.org to find a race near you. Sign up and try. The only person you are competing against is yourself.

See you on the water,
Another 50 something year old guy that races.
Marshall

NV7A259835
NV7A2598351920×1280 221 KB

#6

Buy a marine rated GPS and measure your speed and time over a set distance that might be a common race distance. Measure your waterline length with the boat with you in it and normally outfitted and calculate the ratio to determine what class you might be competing in. The Sitka will probably be in the low end of the sea kayak class. Include any other factors that would determine class in a race that you might be interested in like sex, age, and experience. Some races may further break down the sea kayak class. Consider race conditions. Some are in open water or in rivers that can be more challenging.

Look at race results. These will give you an idea as to what it takes to be competitive.

However, many people race for fun and the camaraderie with the people that are there and not to just collect hardware. Many races, especially the larger ones, feature a range of classes and pretty much anyone with any boat can find a suitable class to race in.

2 Likes
#7

Thx to all who responded. I appreciate the advice! And yah - I should have done more homework on my own before posting but I decided to be lazy and let those already in the know summarize everything for me. : )

Knowing about the different “classes” now is helpful. I’ll definitely get around to checking out one of those more chill weekly local races, see what it’s like, etc.

Thx all!

#8

As another person said… NECKRA would be a good start. They will have much better info than any forum group.

The first two things that I’d want to look into is what type of boat you want to race, and sign up for every coaching session that you can. UCI sprint kayaks, for example, are at the very far end of the tenderness spectrum. If you go that route you will spend your first summer swimming. However, as a paddler, you will build amazing capacity to paddle anything.

When I was competitive I was video taped 3 - 5 times per week by a variety of national team coaches. Small changes to your technique will result in free speed. This will, in turn, make you a better (more efficient), and more knowledgeable paddler.

#9

If you think you might be serious about racing, to the point of buying another boat, research the races in your area and see what might appeal to you. Look at the results. They will list the make and model of the top finishing boats in each class. Then you can align what you want to do with your budget.

A basic skills class will get you started on safety, strokes, rescues, and other essential techniques, and if good will help you avoid bad habits which can detract from speed and efficiency. Then practice, practice, practice. Physical conditioning can take many months or even years, and never ends.

Once you have the basics fully mastered and decide you really want to get into racing on a professional level, you can then turn to advanced coaching. Most people race mainly for fun and don’t go this far.

#10

It is all “basics”. The best paddlers, skiers, etc have mastered the basics to a level that the recreationalists could not comprehend. Racing at the highest level is a testing ground for that mastery.

1 Like
#11

Hi @Gmil2013, Maybe I can help you maybe I can’t, I’ve been kayaking since about 11, Mostly Whitewater stuff, up until about 2006, (after my accident my back was effed so bad I couldn’t roll my Dancer, anymore in a class 3 feature) so I gave that up. and got a rec boat for puttering about on the lakes and rivers near me.

In 2018/19 somewhere in there I bought a Touring Boat, Specifically a Tsunami 175, now I’ve always been a strong paddler, more of a machine than anything else. I bought it for long haul touring and Kayak camping and it’s 400Lb capacity spoke to me as did it’s roomy cockpit, there were only 4 boats that fit my 6’3" 250 lb frame so I went with the Tsunami as it had the highest carrying capacity.

Around that time I stumbled on a few races and figured I’d try my hand at them.

The first was the Walnut to Walnut Race, 15 Miles from walnut Street on the Schuylkill to walnut street on the Delaware River. I new I could do 15 miles as I did 39 miles of constant paddling 3 weeks before, and had been doing 10 miles every weekend. so 15 should be no big deal.

I showed up, and got laughed at by all the weekend warriors in Delta’s Eddyline’s etc, the real nice layup boats, At the end of the day, I came in first 15 miles 3 hours, average speed of 5mph. The expensive boaters just shook their heads and walked on by, being the dicks they were. However I felt good as the next nearest to me was in 30 minutes after I was in. So laugh all you want monkeyboy.

Month later I ran the Dam/Bridge challenge on the Susquehanna it was a 10 miler, not great conditions rainy, and hot, and was not trying a different paddle out. and about half way through I stopped to switch to the same paddle I used on the Walnut to Walnut, Came in Second in class (Touring) and 9th overall I’d like to say I did 5 mph on that but no it took me 2 hours and 1 minute and 33 seconds so 4.9mph and some change

But there I met some nice people as there were guys in custom boats that were specifically made for them, and they run the races by age and Boat class as well as overall.

Since then I’ve been concentrating on the sprints, the 3 mile races and finally bought a new boat mostly so I could beat the guy who previously beat me in the 10 mile one we have this rivalry going.

I race now in a Tempest 180 Pro. In that I’ve hit 6.2 mph on lakes over 3 Miles where the best I could do in the Tsunami is 5.8 mph, and that mostly due to the tempest not losing any real amount of speed in a turn, Straight line both boats are about 6 mph boats, unfortunate the lake near me can only give me a 1.5 mile run, and the races has three turns so I use the faster turning boat.

Anyway this is all Just so you know my background and where I’m coming from.

4.9 in a under 15’ boat is respectable. my fishing boat (Aspire 105, 10.5’ boat) I can get to about 4.4 somewhere in there but I’m only doing 1 mile sprints to get to my fishing spot. So you getting to 4.9 in a short touring boat is respectable.

Technically in the Dam/Bridge, this would be classes as a rec boat, as I believe, under 15’ is considered rec category, 15’-18’ is touring class, and 18’ and up including surf-skis is racing class. The they further break it into under 18, Juniors, 18 to 49 Adult and 50 and up Masterclass. (Geriatric Division.) They usually always win Overall and class. We’ve never had ideal conditions for the races, but in 17-18 foot boats the average speed is about 5 to 5.4 mph

I would highly recommend it, doing the races has tuned my stroke and it’s efficiency, you can learn a lot from watching others, It’s also helped me optimize what paddle blade surface area is best for me and what shaft length is too. But you don’t know until you try.

Now onto your questions, as I said 4.9 mph (calculated from you distance and time.) is respectable in that boat, and you are near enough to the speeds some here post in much longer boats.

So in a longer boat you should be quite faster. I know I am in going from a 10 foot to a 18 foot boat. (roughly the same beam.) you should be too.

A handy rule of thumb I use to have a ballpark idea of how fast I’d be in a touring hull, (doesn’t apply to surfski, or surfski derived hulls.) Is to calculate your hull speed, and take 80% of that. anyone should be able to push their boat if in shape enough and with sufficient cardio to 80% of hull speed.

In calculating you boat at 15’ your hull speed, is 5.9 mph, and at 80% of that you should at about 4.72mph, Since you are hitting 4.9mph or thereabouts (I was lazy and calculated the average of time/distance for you.) a longer hull would easily let you go faster since you are already exceeding 80% of hull speed.

in an 17’ boat you should be around 5.08 mph. I’ve pushed my son’s Tempest 170 to 5.7mph so you are ball park race ready and except for the hard-core who take this too damn seriously (like me.) you might be a contender, depending on who shows up that day. There are guys who seriously spank me in the races, then I usually come in 3rd or 4th, but if they don’t show I can usually come away with a win.

So for getting started, you’re about where I was for my very first race where I ran 5mph. So go for it, you’ll never know by not trying.

1 Like
#12

Welcome to the forum @Gmil2013. Personally I’m a strong believer in competing against myself, which may make sense while you’re building up to competing against others. If the location works for you, there is (was?) a 14 mile (with a 7 mile cut-off option) “Lighthouse to Lighthouse” race every September on Long Island Sound out of Westport, CT. (Not 100% sure if they’re still doing this.) Everyone paddled together, starting in pods by class, and win/place/show were awarded within class. They also kept (presumably accurate) track of each individual’s time for those competing against themselves. Class was determined by type of boat (surfskis, sea kayaks, etc.), further classified by waterline and (I think) beam, and by gender. There may also have been an age category. The year I did it, there was even a guy rowing a dory (I guess he expected big seas :slight_smile:).

One caveat about class: for any boat, waterline and beam at the waterline (technically I don’t think that’s really “beam”) aren’t single measurements, they will change depending on load. Especially some sea kayaks that are specifically designed for touring, your actual waterline may differ (up or down) from the class your boat is assigned to. Theoretically, adding some weight to increase the waterline length might make that kind of boat faster, but on the flip side, it would also increase your waterline “beam”, so… it depends. @Marshall could speak to this more knowledgably.

#13

Beam is the width of the boat. Waterline is the length of the boat when in the water which excludes any of the length that is above the water. Hope that clarifies.

1 Like
#14

Adding weight to increase the waterline length will not make the boat faster. The increase in waterline length will be marginal but the added resistance of the boat moving through the water can increase substantially as you increase the volume of water that you must displace. Ask anyone who has paddled an empty boat and then paddled that same boat loaded for camping.

1 Like
#15

Thanks @castoff – but not really. First, “waterline” is not length – it is the overall cross-section of the hull defined by the intersecting plane at water level. What you’re referring to is “length at waterline”. What I was referring to, if you read carefully, was the analogous “width at waterline” (or “beam at waterline”). You can surmise from my quotes around “beam” that I was using the term figuratively, since I don’t know if there’s a word for this.

#16

@rstevens15, I am one of those people. I paddled an 8 day expedition on the coast of Maine, carrying all my drinking water, in the same boat that I normally paddle for day trips with minimal load. But I can’t say that I noticed an obvious difference – and I think the reason for that is that there are SO many variables other than displacement.

By itself, increased displacement doesn’t always translate into slower speed. For example, a 36" X 12’ rec boat with a flat hull displaces less water than a heavier 21", 19’ sea kayak, but it is clearly much slower. I think your intention was that increased displacement, holding design constant, slows the boat. But when you weight the boat, you are also changing the effective hull design. (How can you be sure that the disadvantage of displacement outweighs the advantage of a longer waterline?)

My old CD Extreme (21", 19’) was designed for expeditions, and handled better when loaded. Despite increased displacement when loaded, it required less effort to counteract rough seas, cross winds, etc.

Then there’s the consideration of momentum: everything else being equal, a heavier boat will be more difficult to accelerate, but once brought up to speed it will have greater tendency to stay at that speed (Newton’s first law). So in a flatwater race with minimal turns, weight could be an advantage.

To summarize: IT DEPENDS!

#17

It doesn’t sound like you did any measuring, have no data, and both to back your claims up with.

There is a reason that ICF specifies boat weight, and why national team athletes don’t put in big leg days in the gym - when you sink that boat lower in the water you displace more water, have greater wetted surface area and greater resistance.

Your comment about a heavier boat being more efficient on flatwater doesn’t hold water. If that where the case coaches would be lining boats with lead sheet, far beyond the ICF minimum.

1 Like
#18

A loaded sea kayak is usually more stable and often tends to feel that it handles better in rough conditions, but when speed is measured by a GPS it will be slower for the same effort due to the increased displacement. Although it will have more momentum, it will take more effort to achieve and maintain the same speed as the same boat that is lighter.

1 Like
#19

Perception is an inconsistent and misleading method for assessing performance. The greater the combined weight of the boat/paddler/load, the greater the displacement and drag. Whether a boat is designed for speed or to carry a load, the characteristics will cause each to behave differently when loaded or unloaded. A 17 ft plastic touring kayak like the Tsunami at 69 lbs will be slower than an 17 ft Olympic kayak at 26 lbs. The load capacity isn’t close enough to compare loaded and unloaded performance. Likewise, rec boats are in an entirely different class which complicates comparison.

Boat width, deck height, and especially length, impacts speed. The length not only increases hull speed potential, it also improves the boat’s ability to maintain speed because it bridge waves better.

The influence of specific features can be argued, and the difference might only be measured incrementally by tenths of an mph, but it is measureable by GPS, even though you may not perceive much change based on perception.

2 Likes