Spent much time in 45 degree water…
…in your wetsuit? Based on your post, it doubt it. With any clothing system for cold weather, the true test is to walk into the water and stay there for a while. If you can’t stand it, your clothing is inadequate. IME, wetsuits that are flexible enough to use for paddling are basically useless in water temps below 50-55 degrees. Sure, you can get warm wetsuits, but they’re way to stiff to paddle in comfortably.
wag wag wag
Any time in 45 degree water?
Yes as a matter of fact three and four hours at a time in the water.
Surfing until I drop. Also in the UK.
Some of you folks don’t realize the Pacific Ocean is mush colder than the east coast of the united states for much of the year.
These guys are surfing in very cold water in Norway.
Notice how they can’t move their arms or bodies in their wetsuits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=071UsiMw5XE
You misunderstand me
– Last Updated: Sep-06-09 10:47 PM EST –
In no way do I condone unsafe paddling, and yes I understand the importance of water versus air temperature.
I think there are two reasonable choices for fall and spring:
(1) Dress up in full sea kayak gear and go wherever you please.
(2) Dress warmly, hug the shore, and only paddle in calm conditions.
I don't think it's necessary for everyone who doesn't want to wear or invest in a wetsuit or drysuit to entirely avoid paddling in the fall and spring. Safety is a matter of a combination of clothing, water and air temperature, water conditions, judgment, how far off shore you go, your ability level, etc. I don't feel it's necessary to rigidly impose off-shore clothing standards on someone who doesn't venture more than 10 feet from shore on a calm day.
That reminds me of the rule that one should never kayak alone---too rigid and doesn't allow for individual decision making and a wide variety of circumstances.
To quote JackL above, "Or you can do like I do and wear a splash jacket and splash pants over some various layers of poly pro long johns and poly pro shirts, (depending on the day time temperatures) and then stay close enough to shore so you can get out with a short quick swim if you had a mishap." That's exactly what I meant to say, except I'm sure JackL paddles in more challenges conditions than I do in fall and spring.
This approach works well for me. I love paddling in those seasons and stay safe by changing where and when I paddle and how I dress.
I’d like to see them sit comfortably…
– Last Updated: Sep-07-09 11:17 AM EST –
...for hours in a kayak. I have yet to see a single wetsuit that's cut to facilitate sitting rather than standing or swimming. While it's certainly possible to buy wetsuits that will keep you warm in cold water, they're too stiff to sit in comfortably.
Moreover, when you get to the point of needing that level of insulation, a dry suit is MUCH more comfortable and FAR more versatile, as you can adjust the amount of insulation to suit the conditions. I've worn my dry suit in temps ranging from the upper 20's (F) to over 70 and have been perfectly comfortable. No wetsuit has that degree of versatility.
When you get right down to it, the only real advantage of wetsuits over dry suits for paddling is that they're cheaper.
Drysuit works better
– Last Updated: Sep-07-09 7:47 PM EST –
Though I use various types of wetsuits the rest of the year, for the really cold part of what's left of the paddling season I use a Gore-tex drysuit with wicking long underwear. The drysuit is far more comfortable when cold (it's DRY), plus it is adjustable for temps via choice of layers underneath. In a pinch, if you didn't bring enough insulating layers, you can add a little air to the suit and that adds warmth. Just don't overdo it, because you don't want to be Michelin Man when paddling.
The wetsuit's clamminess does not matter most of the year here, but there is no way I'd risk being stuck in that in cold conditions. It takes LONGER to don and doff a full wetsuit than it does a drysuit and layers. The clamminess means that in winter you'd be shivering as you removed it after paddling.
In short, I'd start with a good drysuit and later add a shorty and maybe a full wetsuit for the shoulder seasons. Initially, you can use the drysuit for winter and the shoulder seasons.
Major advantage of a wetsuit, besides lower initial cost, is that it is "sleeker" which is nice for things like scrambling around on the deck and for swimming in.
did I miss something?
– Last Updated: Sep-07-09 7:49 PM EST –
you never said where you live===Jackl lives in North Carolina where you could probably deal with a short swim in february---hell the lakes don't even freeze there----in Maine where I'm from we don't paddle on the lakes in feb because they are frozen---and even a short swim(say 50-75 yards or so)unprotected in Maine water in the winter could prove fatal--if you live in Florida then you might not even need a wetsuit in the winter---south florida that is--btw I'm now in NOVA/Md and still plan on wearing my drysuit come november
Types of neoprene
Part of the myth may be due to differences in types of neoprene. Some are just stretchier than others. And it seems each brand is cut differently, and even individual models within each brand.
Gotta try them out to know, unfortunately.
Eastern PA
I live in Eastern PA… by the looks of the posts, a dry suit would be the best way to go, but I’m a bit intimidated by how much they cost as I am a college student with a mortgage…
Sitting is just fine …
– Last Updated: Sep-07-09 10:04 PM EST –
so is flying .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpW0iXi7NM
Wetsuit has the advantage of being more hydrodynamic ...
Water flows over you like a seal ... decreasing drag.
Also a puncture or rips is not life threatening in cold water ..
same is not true of a drysuit.
Swimming in dry suits in waves is not very pleasant. Wetsuit is buoyant but not to the point where you recirculate in waves.
It never ceases to amaze me why
– Last Updated: Sep-08-09 5:48 AM EST –
people make statements about something that they don't have a clue!
In the winter months in lake James many of the bays are ice covered. (we have broken ice on several occasions to get from one bay to another with open water.)
the water that feeds the lake comes from 5000 foot mountains that usually have a snow pack on them.
since you now moved to DC, you might want to do some skiing at one of our many winter ski resorts that are in and around Boone
I don't claim to know about your wonderful ex-state, so you shouldn't make claims about a place that you are totally ignorant of.
And to the OP, even though I have a dry suit, I don't like the swish-swish -swishing sound it makes when I am paddling, so I usually don't use it and wear what I said in my second paragraph,above and stay close enough to shore to get out of the water quickly if need be.
cheers,
JackL
Dry cags are fine!
– Last Updated: Sep-08-09 6:22 AM EST –
This talk of expensive drysuits rather presumes that you are preparing for a swim: so long as you have a virtually bomb-proof roll (free: just takes practise - can be mastered before paddling in a straight line if you're determined)... that doesn't HAVE to be part of the equasion.
Virtually bomb-proof isn't the same as 100% bombproof... so if the places are conditions are truly extreme then you've got to decide how risk averse you are and and how much you back your technique / temperament... but before drysuits came along, UK creeks (class 3-4-5) were routinely paddled in winter (only time they had water) by folk who regarded the inexpensive drycag (sealing at the neck and wrists) and the deck as the only must-have items.
That said... I did once really, REALLY wish I'd got some sort of neoprene skull-cap under my helmet: routine experience of immersion in COLD water still hadn't prepared me for the shick of immersion in genuinely FREEZING waters where ice was forming wherever the current dropped!
Oh brother…
What does hydrodynamics have to do with anything? We’re not talking about marathon swimming, we’re talking about paddling. The purpose of the wet/dry suit is to keep you warm in the event of an unintended swim, hopefully only while you’re re-entering your boat. If you end up in the water for an extended amount of time, warmth is by far the most important factor. When you’re paddling, comfort is the primary concern. Either way, a dry suit is vastly superior to a wetsuit and much more versatile.
The “what happens if you tear your dry suit” argument is one of the most overblown I’ve seen. The likelihood of tearing a dry suit while sea kayaking is nearly zero.
Your point about swimming in waves in a dry suit make no sense at all.
Wetsuits may be the best product for surfing, but they’re far from ideal for paddling.
Dry Top vs. Splash Jacket vs. Dry Suit
I paddle in the MD/VA/DC area and the water in the winter freezes for a few weeks with air temps around or below freezing as well. Should be similar to PA.
A dry top and dry pants combo with layers under them worked well for my first full winter of paddling (wicking shirt + an old wool or fleece sweather/pants + something for my neck either over the suit or under the neck gasket). A neoprene hood (either covering the head only or the head and neck/chin) is a must to have if getting wet or if staying mostly dry - a woll or synthetic hat works quite well (but I still have the hood in my pocket, in case things change as you do not want a freezing wet hat in sub-zeo wind chill for several hours even if it is sunny otherwise).
I did not feel the need for anything more than a pair of Glacier Gloves for 2-3 hour paddles in just below freezing temps but I would get something warmer for colder days. Thin boots with thick socks worked well as long as I did not wade in water too much. Thicker neoprene booties are better and dry socks - much better.
I’ve had a shorty neoprene suit, but I found that restrictive for the repetitive motion and while sitting during paddling even though it works perfectly for wind surfing - so I do not use it for paddling. I imagine a sleeveless wet suit may work a little better than the short sleeve I had, but you still need layers with that…
These items ain’t cheap once you put them together…
However, any two-piece solution will leak, so if you plan on spending active time in the water, a dry suit will be better.
If I had to start over, I’d probably go for the dry suit directly, skipping “cheap” intermediate steps.
But my Dry Top + Dry Pants combo worked well and since I already have it, I will use it this winter again. It costs probably just a litle over half the price of a comparable quality dry suit. And works perfectly if you have a way to get back to your boat or to shore quickly. Plus it is more versatile and easier to get in and out or to replace half of it when damaged.
Whatever you get, test it in the water - it is very educational to experience (in controlled conditions) what cold water begins to do to you in a very short time.
Lastly, a comment on the splash jacket. I have one and found it of mixed value. It certainly works well for shielding from rain and wind and I usually carry it as a back-up if the wind-chill suddenly becomes an issue and to wear it over my dry top in this case. But the loose hood obstructs my vision and in strong wind tends to slap my face (mine does not have a good lacing for the hood). And even though I have neoprene gaskets under the velcro straps on the neck and hands, water still gets in - not as good as with a dry gear. If you have the splash jacket and forget to tightly close the neck/hands, be ready for a side effect - it fills-in with water fast and gets heavy, the hood alone probably holds half a gallon of water and that can keep you from rolling -
This spring I had that jacket on for some demo day, rolled a few times, filled it with water and as it got increasingly heavy, on the last try I could not come-up (shame!) and had to bail out and stand in the waist deep water…
In PA
I have to say that a drysuit makes more sense. see if you can find a used one in the $200 to $300 range.
In the southeast, I can pick and choose my kayaking days and get by with a wetsuit and a layer or two. The serious whitewater guys all have drysuits though – they gotta paddle when the water is there and can’t always wait for a warm day.
Drysuits also have a convenience factor – easy to step out of and you’re ready to drive home in your regular clothes. I’ll eventually get one, but I’m waiting on a good deal and I like the idea of a breathable suit.
jim
“If I had to start over…”
“I’d probably go for the dry suit directly, skipping “cheap” intermediate steps.”
That’s the conclusion that a lot of people ultimately come to, myself included. You end up wasting money on less expensive, but also less-than-ideal solutions and end up buying a dry suit anyway. Unfortunately, it’s often hard to convince people to just make the big investment up front and save themselves money in the long run.
Have had the same thought
The wetsuit and other neoprene layers I went thru early on are quite useful for newer paddlers to borrow when we have skills sessions, especially since it’s womens sizes, but I could have saved some bucks had I known then what I know now about liking to be dry.
The Other Way…
– Last Updated: Sep-09-09 9:38 AM EST –
I started with a Kokatat Meridian Goretex and then a Palm Drysuit. I found that these were more "dampsuits" when I sprinted through the breakzone and then became "chill suits" when I sat outside waiting for waves. The last several years, I only use my wetsuits. I get damp but stay warm. If too warm, I roll. For me and my use, way better than drysuits.
For newbies, I say go with a drysuit. It'll be fine for your "average" winter group paddles in coldwater (easy pace, calm conditions). More skills will give more options what you do and what you wear.
The "saw" about wetsuits being too restrictive for paddling probably applies to "drysuit" companies making wetsuits using the less expensive, older neoprene formulas. Not true for the reputable surf wetsuit manufacturers.
sing
Damp Suit -
How right are you! Since I typically go for brisk exercise paddles for 2-3 hours at a time, I sweat so much (and usually my upper body is wet from the outside as well, previnting breathing of the DWR layer), that the “dry” in the dry top is very limited. I start dry and come out as wet from sweat and condensation as if I have been swimming in my underwear… But I’m not cold -
I have yet to try the “new” wet suits you talk about so can’t comment on them. But even some not well fitting wick shirts I have create rub areas after 2-3 hours of non-stop paddling, so I doubt the thicker neoprene would be better. But, for WW or surfing that might not be the case - the motions are not as repetitive and there is more rest b/w catching waves etc., compared to an exercise distance paddle in a straight line…
Yup. Usage/Conditions Matter…
surfing is about a lot of quick, hard starts and stops in between. I surf year round, but especially in the winter when we have the most consistent conditions (when most paddlers are sitting at home because it’s too rough and/or cold…). On a dawn patrol, I am usually out from 2-3 hours. On the weekends, I could be out anywhere from 4-6 hours straight. The right wetsuit keeps me warm through all that time.
Match gear and skills to the the venue. Blanket statements are for those who “know it all.”
sing
but for those further south…
I’ve been paddling in Southern Cal all winter in surf and such fine using a wetsuit and paddle jacket. Water temps get as low as 57F. This year I want to include northern Cal in my winter plans with water temps down to 50F or so. I’m thinking of getting a semi-dry top since some have been shown to be almost a dry as a dry top and I don’t expect enough cold paddling to get used to a latex neck gasket. Also considering thin neoprene pants to complement the semi-dry top for those days when I expect to roll or get hit by waves a lot, but otherwise not too much swimming since wetsuit and semi-dry top can otherwise be too warm in So Cal even in winter (for me anyway). Having various options like this is good to span those in between weather days.