I am glad you posted that, from the “published” cockpit openings that I have, (I didn’t go out and measure the Santee 116) the Santee cockpit opening is much larger then the Delta 12.1 or 12S and I was worried I wouldn’t fit into either one. One thing that is confusing is that there is only 1/2” difference in the width and length of the cockpit openings on the 12.1 and 12S, but they say the 12S will only accommodate a 145-165 pound paddler and the 12.1 can accommodate a 175-200 pound paddler. I am 5’ 10”, 175 lbs and was wondering if I can even fit into a 12S, even though I like a short, compact boat and it will fit into the van easier. If the 12.1 is just much more of a boat, more boat for the money and much more versatile, I can shoehorn it into the van somehow.
Published:
Santee 116 - 20.5 x 43
Delta 12.1 - 17 x 32
Delta 12S - 16.5 x 31.5
I have to go outside and measure the inside opening of the Santee cockpit opening.
True, but this whole discussion is highlighting the fact that every thermoformed kayak (maybe all kayaks?) has at least one design or material fault offset by some advantage:
Delta: Great design (stable, large hatch volume) and material vs small cockpit. The cockpit on Delta’s transitional kayaks is out of sync with the market and more typical of sea kayaks.
Eddyline: Good material and large cockpit vs low deck and lack of stability compared to the competion.
Hurricane: Great design (stable, large hatch volume) and larger cockpit than Delta vs thinner material.
Swift: Very lightweight vs least stable design of all and exorbitant price.
The mystery to me is why some manufacturer doesn’t see the opportunity here to make a stable kayak out of good plastic with a larger cockpit. In other words, a Delta with a bigger cockpit. My theories about why this isn’t being done: failure to keep up with the body size of today’s users (outdated stereotype of kayakers as young, skinny males), rigid adherence to an old brand image like Eddyline’s low deck to supposedly “reduce windage,” the cost of making new moulds, cutting corners on the plastic thickness to keep the weight down and the price lower, secrecy around plastic specs, false claims about stability.
My solution for the Delta’s short cockpit is to lift the front of the seat off the rail it slides on and push the seat all the way back to the coaming. I will also be sawing out the knee braces to create more room in the front of the cockpit. Many kayaks have extra space behind the seat. The Hurricane Sojourn seat is one of these. I remove the from its hangers and place it on the bottom of the kayak with a layer of 1/4" closed-cell foam under it. I add two strips of heavy waterproof tape to the hull under the foam to protect the hull from the edges of the seat, and I file down the edges. The seat is pushed back as far as it will go. My solution for the Eddyline and the Swift was to sell them and never buy those brands again.
Remember: you don’t know the true stability of a kayak versus your skills until you’re confronted with adverse conditions. Until then, all you have is the manufacturer’s claims. People who love less stable hull shapes either are advanced paddlers with good bracing skills or they’ve never encountered challenging conditions.
Recommended size limits are not based on cockpit opening. It’s about the boat design, and the load the boat can safely carry. Two boats of different designs (one wider, shorter, higher deck, the other narrower, longer, lower deck) could have exactly the same cockpit opening. The same size person could fit into the opening. However, where do your feet and legs go? How buoyant is the boat? Are you taking water in over the coaming when you edge? Can you edge at all, or is the boat too wide for good contact?
Someone 180 lbs could be 5’-0” tall, or 6’-5” tall. There is more to it than the size of the opening.
I was thinking about that, I may be pushing the limit with the 12S. I have to look at the hull dimensions compared to my Santee 116. I am very happy with the 116’s design and it is 6” shorter than the Delta 12S. That is why I thought it might be a good fit. For what I do, how I transport and store the boat, I want a short boat. The 12.1 is a little long, I have to see if the 12S is a viable option, I am totally unfamiliar with Delta, I know they are vert well made, I do not know anything about their designs.
Mjac, the essential spec you’re missing is the depth of the cockpit. Delta 12.10 13.5". 12S is only 12" deep.
Several specs working together determine cockpit fit and comfort: length, width, depth, how far back the seat is, height of the seat, presence or absence of knee braces, angle of the knee braces, shape of the cockpit opening. A deck hatch right in front of the cockpit can increase the feeling of confinement. In the Deltas, the length of the cockpit and the knee braces make for a more confined cockpit, sort of crowding you in. Note especially the narrow space at the front of the cockpit created by the position of the knee braces. I don’t think any of these would be problematical for you on the 12.10 given your average height and weight, but the 12S is questionable because . . .
The 16.5 x 31.5 x 12 cockpit on the 12S is quite typical of sea kayaks and very unusual in a recreational or transitional kayak. Thus the 12S is clearly intended for smaller people. On the 12.10, the 17" width is typical, but 32" is quite short for a recreational or transitional kayak. Delta’s website states that the 12.10 has “room to comfortably fit almost any size of paddler.” This is just false and to be ignored.
With a short cockpit you may need to have the arm and shoulder strength to exit by sitting on the rear deck, which not everyone can do, and conditions don’t always allow it. If you exit in other ways, like sidesaddle, you need to be able to bend your knee back far enough to clear the front of the coaming with your foot, including when you’re wearing mukluks. That’s harder for older people with less flexible hips.
I definitely don’t think you should favor the 12S over the 12.10 because it fits better in your vehicle. That’s not going to matter when you’re on the water. The extra 1.5" in depth on the 12.10 will allow you to change positions more easily to relieve pressure points on a longer trip. I believe you will definitely fit in the 12.10. Once you get used to it, I think you will feel like you have better control in the Delta 12.10 compared to your Santee, and you will feel more protected from waves. You will be able to get a half skirt to keep water out and protect your legs from the sun:
Do you not want to transport your kayak on top of your vehicle?
Quantitative data (cockpit size, deck height, cost…) is easy to find and prospective buyers should consider all of it.
While hull thickness is technically quantitative, manufacturer don’t supply specs. Unless someone has taken the time to cut cross-sections, it’s a qualitative assessment. Rigging aside (esp the seat), there should be an inverse relationship between weight and general durability across the thermoform sector. However, it’s not a perfect as hull thickness is not uniform and manufacturer’s use different materials (at least they say they do), and damage can arise from many different sources.
Other comparisons (good or bad design, good or bad stability) are clearly qualitative and dependent on the user. For example, is primary or secondary stability the paddler’s main concern? I have had no issue with stability of my Eddylines nor have any of my guest users. I had one Swift for awhile. It lacked primary stability (compared to Eddyline), but was better in terms of secondary stability. Poor tracking was my complaint with the Swift, but a more skilled paddler may not have had an issue at all.
There are lot’s of moving parts and few one-size-fits-all answers.
Alright, I am very happy with the Hurricane Kayak Santee 116 design and it is 6” sorter than the Delta Kayak 12S. What is it about the design of the Delta 12S that is different from the design of the Santeej 116 that makes it an unwise choice? I am just looking, Santee 116, 11’ 6”, Delta 12S, 12’, Ahhaa, that is my boat.
When I exit my Santee 116, which is my only point of reference, I always, always, am on the rear deck, from putting my hands on the Coaming (which is another issue as you well know). But you have a point, you shouldn’t have to convince yourself a boat will work because it is convenient, either it works or it does not. The boat is not only transported in the van, right now, it is stored in the van. With everything in there, it took a magic trick to situate the boat. It is going to take a major shoe horn to get the 12.1 into that truck, but if that is the right boat, then that is the way it is and other storage options may open up so I would be buying a boat to fit a perhaps temporary situation with the 12S.
I do not want anything to act as a deterrent to paddling. If I feel like going, I want to go without hesitations, to me loading and unloading a boat on top of a van is just that. If the boat is in storage you have to load the boat up to go. You then unload the boat to go paddle. Then you load the boat again to get home. Then you unload the boat again to put it back in storage. Right now I get into the truck and in 5 minutes I am here.
In other words you have to find a boat and sit in the darn thing and quite trying to add up all of its numbers which won’t mean a darn thing anyway once you sit in it…done.
I strongly agree with this and have said this in several posts in hopes that paddlers will ask for these specs and manufacturers will provide them. You can get a subjective impression of thickness and rigidity by pressing down on specific places. I wish it could be more than subjective for this important safety feature.
Nonexpert paddlers should be aware that certain hull shapes are inherently more or less stable than others and therefore require more or less skill before they commit to a kayak. This is very readily apparent when you paddle a Delta or Hurricane back to back with an Eddyline or a Swift in rough water. I’m not an expert paddler and my comments about the stability of a certain brand are aimed at nonexperts.
I stand 100% by my claim that the Delta shape is inherently much more stable than the Eddyline shape in rough water, which is the main safety concern, especially for nonexperts. My Eddyline was overcome by 2.5-foot waves coming from different directions (like when you round a point) and (I’m guessing) 30-40 mph winds, such that I had to get off the water in a remote place. An expert paddler might have made it home safely that day. I didn’t make it home. If you don’t have good bracing skills, the Eddyline does particularly poorly when hit from the side by waves, which is where the Delta excels (and the Hurricane Sojourn, which has the identical shape). Maybe you can share your experience with your Eddyline by describing the conditions you’ve had it in so we can make a fair comparison.
Is language a factor here? When I think of hull shape, I think of its profile (round, V-shape, flat, etc.), chines (hard, soft, multi), and how the combination effects primary and secondary stability and tracking. I agree that most Eddylines (maybe all current models, but I don’t know) have relatively low deck heights and large cockpits that would make them more susceptible to being swamped in rough water. The only Eddyline I’ve paddled in (semi) rough water was my Merlin and I found it quite capable. I don’t paddle either of the two rec boats I have now (Skylark, Sandpiper), and I don’t let others take them out if the water isn’t calm (or close to it) or if deteriorating weather is predicted.
Buffalo_Alice:
“I have had no issue with stability of my Eddylines…”
WaterBird:
“ I am not an expert paddler…”
“An expert paddler may have made it home safely that day, I didn’t make it home.”
“ If you do not have good bracing skills, the Eddyline does particularly poorly when hit from the side by waves.”
Does this mean Buffalo_Alice is a better paddler with better bracing skills?
The biggest difference between the Eddyline and Delta hull shapes is the amount of volume in the bow and stern. Deltas have a bulbous bow and stern, with a very large amount of storage space in the hatches. The depth is greater compared to Eddyline, yes, but the bow and stern also flare outward, compared to Eddyline’s fine ends. This flared shape has tremendous buoyancy. Eddylines by comparison have very little volume in the bow and stern, such that it can be quite difficult to load them with camping gear.
The chine also makes a difference. It is more pronounced on the Eddylines than the Deltas, making the Eddylines harder to control in rough or confused seas. When you’re hit by a side wave, the Eddyline tends to turn over pretty fast unless you react with a quick brace. The combination of large volume in the ends, more depth, and a less sharp chine makes the Deltas much more forgiving. That makes for a more relaxed ride—you don’t have to be constantly watching the waves anxiously and making corrections. The Delta does much of the stability work for you. The Eddyline expects you to do the stability work, which is fine for expert paddlers or quiet lakes.
If you could paddle the Merlin in rough water with large waves, you’re a pretty good paddler. Eddyline discontinued the Merlin due to poor stability. (Information directly from the former owner.)
I don’t think the large Eddyline cockpit is a problem for water entry, since you can put on a spray skirt or half skirt to solve that.
Been talking to Delta they say you can’t completely rule out the 12S in my case but. I would probably be more comfortable in the 12.1. But bottom line is you can analyze all you want, but you have to sit in them, then all questions are answered. The nearest dealer is an REI 300 miles away and they only carry the 12.1. Asked Delta if they have an owners network, got no answer. Put a notice on Paddle.com for any Delta 12.1 or 12S owners, nothing. Can’t buy the boat unless you sit in it, will just try and come across one.
