Cross over kayak choice?

Thinking about getting a cross over type kayak. Considering either a Liquid Logic XP-10 found a used one for about $740 Or a new Pyranha Fusion River Tour M for $899.

Mostly for moving water, maybe class 1 and would do class 2 at the most. But want as decent flat water speed as possible in this type of kayak being only 10 feet for slower parts of the creek.

Iam 5’8" 160 pounds size 8 foot.

I like the Pyranha Fusion better
I have paddled the Fusion, the LL XP9 and the LL XP10 some. Of these, I prefer the flat water performance of the Fusion by a pretty wide margin. I have not paddled it on whitewater, but I know some folks who have paddled it on Class IV whitewater, so I know it to be more than capable for your whitewater needs.

Other contenders are the Wave Sport Ethos and the Jackson Rogue neither of which I have paddled. Just judging from the hull configuration, of these two I suspect I would prefer the Wave Sport boat.

Check out the Karma UL, and Stinger XP

– Last Updated: Apr-07-14 7:31 PM EST –

From Jackson and LiquidLogic. The UL comes in two versions, the a rock gardening version is with hatches and bungees, which is what you would want, I'm guessing.

You won't find them used just yet though...

And why not the P&H Hammer?

Hammer $$
The hammer is way to high in price, around $1700 to much for the amount of use I will give it.

then you lost me about the UL and rock gardening?? Which kayak were you referring too? Make and model.

Now the Fusion iam leaning toward as I also read a review on it saying it was pretty fast for its size. Plus at $899 total its priced right There can be long stretch’s with very little water flowing so flat water speed would be an added bonus.

I have 2 other kayaks for bigger open water. This would be creeks and maybe an over night camping.

UL = unlimited

– Last Updated: Apr-07-14 9:13 PM EST –

The Jackson Karma Unlimited is the model that has a RG version, which comes with a rear bulkhead, deck lines, and a skeg. That skeg can make a huge difference for flat water speed.

the fusion also has a skeg. My friends who have had both say the Karma RG is much faster. Karma RG has a bit more volume than the Fusions, especially in the rear.

Did you ask about what rock gardening is? It is using a wave to flush you over or around rocks in the ocean. A group called Neptune's Rangers have been using these shorter boats for this for a while now (traditionally, it was done with sea kayaks). here is a blog post they did that talks of some of these boats, and includes some videos of what rock gardening is - They did the LL Stinger as a separate review at

I don't think there is a review of the Karma yet, but at least one of the guys has one.

vote for fusion
I have the Fusion and the Rogue, and have paddled the Remix XP. My opinion is that the Fusion wins hands down for flat water speed. In all honesty, though, from your described uses, I have to wonder if you would not be happier with a sturdy rec kayak.

Thumbs up for Fusion, maybe Katana?
I have a 2012 Fusion with the higher end outfitting (not the river tour) and like it quite a bit. I tested the XP10 and the Rouge, and for me, at least the Fusion was the clear winner for speed and maneuverability. I was on a creek paddle Sunday with someone in a Rogue, who commented several times how much faster I seemed to be going with less effort. There are a lot of variables that go into speed, however. I’m your height and about 5-10 pounds heavier.

I sat in a Dagger Katana at Canoecopia last month: it seems like a nice boat. I’m looking forward to reading some reviews as those early adopters get them out on the water. MSRP is a bit more than the river tour Fusion option, but the outfitting is a lot more comfortable. Good luck!

"MSRP is a bit more than the river tour Fusion option, but the outfitting is a lot more comfortable. Good luck!"

I was thinking about the River Tour version over the Connect version. I think if I had the river Tour which has regular kayak foot pegs as opposed to the white water style bulkhead plate I could then put a drybag in front of foot pegs if I wanted extra storage or maybe a float bag for floatation. Or maybe one of those float bags you can put stuff into it.

Not sure how the outfitting is different between the two besides the foot pegs and the folding backrest.

XP10 …
i have XP10 …nice stable boat …haven’t done any serious ww with it …but i can say its not as “fast” in calm water as the ads claim …it’ll putt along …but the bow tends to plow when u try to pick up speed. I had a leak in the skeg box but dealer fixed it …no problem since. With the skeg up, U can tell the boat has some rocker to it…it’ll get squirrelly on ya. I think the design definitely favors the moving water side and not the calm water.

cross over boats are a myth
I do not want to ruffle feathers, this is my own opinion.

I currently own a LL Stinger XP and had a Piranha Fusion S I used for rock gardening and WW. Both are advertised as being “fast” and in moving water they are quicker than most WW or play boats. On flat water rivers or lakes they are not much fun. The Stinger is the fastest “crossover” I have paddled. In my opinion, most any 12’ recreational boat is just as fast or faster than any crossover.

There are boats that are very capable in class 1 or 2 WW that are also quite good on the flat stuff. I have a Dagger Alchemy that I use when I am going to be on flat water mixed in with light WW.

From your post it seemed speed has some importance to you, if this is so, I would not look at crossover WW boats, I would be looking at a touring boat that is WW capable.

Again, in my opinion, take a look at your intended paddling habitat, and find a suitable boat.

speed is what you’ll give up the most
with either of those boats. However, they will both be very stable in ww. I call my LL xp “boating for dummies” because it is super forgiving. The xp’s cockpit is really big so its hard to get in tight for rolling and leaning. While the seat is very comfy it is not conducive to an upright paddling posture needed for progressing in ww paddling. Check out the review section on pnet for more detailed info on both boats. If you go with the fusion I would invest in the ww outfitting- bulkhead etc. The jackson rogue is the quickest of the crossover’s I paddled but less stable and felt more old school. I didn’t like the Rogue’s rudder set up, it seemed prone to problems. Expect a heavy boat with leaky hatches regardless of the model you pick. All that bein’ said I’ve used my xp10 a ton on class III and IV and done fine with it. Overall it is a very versatile boat. They are better than many ww boats for carrying gear and faster than other shorter ww boats but they are just plain slow on the flats compared with “tourers.”

I agree about the speed, but as a mostly
ww person, I’m not that interested in speed on the flats. Crossover boats are enabling some to do really very difficult, inaccessible runs while carrying necessary gear. You can do that in some non-crossover boats, but not as easily. With a big person like me, the largest whitewater only river runners just don’t have much gear capacity left.

But you’re correct, there are people who get crossover boats for all the wrong reasons. Two good single purpose boats are better than one compromise.

Everything you write makes sense to me. The seat is a little more substantial in the connect, I think, and angles up in a way that as I recall I found more comfortable on those 4-5 hour paddles. I have various physical fussinesses, so that is admittedly more important to me than it might be for others. I can’t remember whether there are additional thigh/knee pads in the RT version. I’m finding that I need to add more foam in that area for comfort regardless.

If you can sit in both I’d recommend it.

You can reasonably easily take out/out back in the foot plate to put a float bag up front, but it would be a pain to do for drybags or anything you needed access to. Several club members I paddle with have replaced the foot plate with pegs in the Connect. I’ve thought about it as I learned to paddle with pegs and am having a little trouble adjusting to the foot plate. I don’t plan on doing more than Class III, but I use it for creeks and small rivers that have a decent current and strainers, etc. I hope to progress more into Class II-III whitewater this summer.

I got it for its maneuverability, not its speed, for sure, but of the kayaks in that category I think it does well. It’s all relative! I wouldn’t use it for a primarily flat water paddle.

fast enough?

– Last Updated: Apr-09-14 1:26 PM EST –

Depends on river flow and who you are with.
I can't compare crossovers, but can speak a bit about my XP10 and speed. When the flow of the river is fast, so that mostly we are floating and maneuvering, my XP10 has advantages to my wife's touring kayak -- in that it is more maneuverable; we go roughly the same speed. Where/when the flow is slower so we are sometimes paddling faster than the flow, she has the speed advantage (V bow cutting through vs. rounded pushing the water as noted above). So, I'm lucky to have a choice based on where/when we go on the river -- my XP10 or my 14' tourer. Unless a friend is using my tourer; in which case I just work alittle harder in the slower current with my XP10. I NEVER take my XP10 on a lake.
I expect this is pretty true for most (all?) "crossovers."

Yes Tdaniel
Tdaniel thats pretty much what I would use it for. Mostly moving water but there are spots were it creek widens and water slows down were paddling is needed, so thats why iam looking for the fastest crossover kayak, not the fastest kayak of course by a long shot. Other wise I would use either of my longer touring kayaks. I think the fusion is most likely it. Haven’t yet decided plus iam waiting to see what a local kayak store has in stock but there closed till Thursday. Never been there so no idea what they stock. Friend bought a Dagger Katana there.

speed translates to efficiency
and less effort. I paddled my xp10 from middle saranac lake to just below permanent rapids in the dacks- time wise it worked out just fine- no portage around the rapids, I just ran 'em straight up and I skipped one of the locks as well- so the trade off was no portage vs literally plowing across the lakes-you gotta pick your poison-on another trip I skipped the portage from forked lake to long lake (except for buttermilk falls) by paddling a perception mirage- it IS faster than the xp- but the seat is really hard, poor back support so lots of factors go into what makes a satisfactory boat,my nephew paddled it on the middle saranac to permanent rapids trip and he suffered more than I did even though he had the faster boat.