I m looking to purchase 1 of the cross over boats with the drop down skeg. I have not been able to find a consumer comparison on them. I started looking at the remix xp 10, but then realized there were other options. Jackson rogue, Dagger katana, pyranh fusion. These r the others that I have been looking at. Any advise pros or cons…
What sort of paddling? For very easy
whitewater, a crossover is probably pointless. And you pay a big penalty on flatwater, compared to a touring kayak.
I have a Fusion
I have the medium sized Fusion with Connect 30 outfitting(also a river tour outfitting available). I use mine only on moving water creeks. Its great for that. I have friend with the XP models, there hatch leaks. Also a friend with a Katana 10.4, he is a bigger guy around 6’ 2".
I looked at all of them. The medium fusion for me was best(there is a small, medium & large). its the narrowest of the three different brand kayaks. Faster than the XP not sure about the Katana speed wise but that thing was just huge for me. Iam 5’8" 169 lbs.
With the skeg up it spins easily, drop the skeg down and she goes straight. Since its a rope skeg you don’t have to worry about scraping bottom with the skeg down while going forward, just don’t go backwards with the skeg down.
Its not near as versatile a kayak as others will mention but I have two other kayaks. I would say it hits its hull speed on flat water at maybe 3 mph, maybe a little more I never actually measured it, once there it takes a lot of effort to make it go faster. Not something I would go out paddling say on a large lake. I could take it into lake Erie for some surfing if I wanted but I take one of my other kayaks for that stuff but its doable if no long paddle to were your surfing is involved.
I added 2 float bags in the front for safety reasons. Also added deck perimeter line in front and back. It rolls ok but its my hardest kayak to roll, my other two kayaks are Valley Avocet and NDK Greenlander Pro.
comparision, for extreme use
Neptune’s Rangers did some comparisons on their blog for rock gardening and surfing use: http://neptunesrangers.blogspot.com/. I think they covered the Fusion, Karma RG, and a few that don;t have skegs like Stinger (or does that have a skeg?) and Green Boat. From their reviews, i got the Karma.
How is the karma for paddling
spot to spot - I know it’s not going to be as good as a seakayak, but am looking for something that I can paddle on some fairly long trips on the coast and still manage rock gardens and surf.
I’ve got one
Wave Sport Ethos 9 (which I’d consider selling – west-central Georgia). Before that, I had a LL Remix XP9. I’ve never used the skeg in the Ethos. The Remix really needed skeq to not get swervy.
I thought I needed a crossover to transition from flatwater, to whitewater paddling. And, I thought I might do some camping sometime, in class I/II ww.
I’ve got more dedicated whitewater boats, now. Haven’t camped. But, in class I/II, I think I’d be just as happy camping out of my Dagger Alchemy 14S.
Unless you’re actually going to camp via class I/II, I would not recommend a crossover. They’re just not much fun to paddle in flat water, especially if you are paddling with longer boats or stronger paddlers. Or, if you enjoy quitetude while making headway in flat water: they push a lot of water when approaching their maximum (slow) speed.
Why a stodgy crossover on “moving water
creeks”? Get on some whitewater or give it up.
Here is a link comparing The Dagger Approach, LiquidLogic ReMix XP and Pyranha Fusion that was in another thread.
I am same as you currently, can’t decide if I want a short touring boat or crossover for creeks and streams. Nothing big enough around me to warrant a WW kayak. Plan to demo some kayaks this weekend hopefully.
User reviews are usually biased to either complete love or hatred. Also you really need to sit in kayaks and paddle them if possible. Buying based off internet reviews is going to be a mistake.
Pretty sure CKS has reviewed all of them and even has some comparison reviews.
Another comparison – I have seen a lot of them over the years, just google harder.
I have an XP10. The reality is crossovers will handle more like a similar sized rec kayak with the skeg down than a whitewater kayak on flat not moving water but you will not go fast. The reality is they are slow and probably a bit slower than a similar sized rec kayak. If your lake paddles are just to float around they are fine. If you want to go distances it is going to be slow but they will go straight.
I think of them more as beginner white water kayaks (they are really stable) for 1-3 (many reports of them doing 4 but with experienced kayakers) or load hauling whitewater kayaks, either if you are a big guy who doesn’t fit well or you are carrying lots of gear and camping. They really aren’t good for a 8 hour day paddling on a lake but neither really is a 10’ rec kayak. They are meant to be in moving water.
The reality is I have seen plenty of people do easy white water in 14 foot kayaks as well as rec kayaks. I see people take 15+ kayaks down very narrow twisting streams. I only once ever saw someone try to kayak a canal in a white water kayak (he didn’t last long).
Longer touring kayaks in whitewater just go straight through the rapids. If you misread the river and need to turn at the last minute you might be going for a swim. You can’t really go over rocks.
You have a much better experience in a crossover and even more so in the right “real” whitewater kayak.
Crossovers are all designed for WW.
Then they put a skeg on them so flatwater is easier.
You’re making a mistake getting a crossover unless you use it in whitewater.
Good post. I think experienced ww
paddlers probably choose crossovers because they want to carry gear and camp. I would not have trouble cruising as fast as most crossovers, on flatwater, in my old Dagger Animas or older Noah Magma. But they don’t carry camping gear well.
I agree the reality is that crossovers
are probably the best option out there for ww overnighting . They do become really sluggish with gear like most ww boats. Unfortunately, they’re marketed towards folks that want to dabble in ww but the reality is they’re probably best suited for ww tripping because they are slow on the flats. All boats have trade offs- as a category here is how I see crossovers:
large cockpit area: +safe, easy to get in and out of, - hard to lock in for bigger rapids, harder to roll, boat may have pegs vs bulkhead depending upon model and options selected
comfortable with slightly laid back seats: +for paddling long distances, - doesn’t promote good posture or improved technique
storage hatches: +overnight capacity, no need to remove walls to stow, built in flotation, - some models trap water, harder to drain boat, widens the overall boat design (slower), hatch covers can be hard to remove
enlarged ww hull designs by ww manufacturers: +solid ww performers, stable to learn basic ww skills in, good for plus sized boys and girls -slow on the flats (expend lots of energy to paddle in the flats, tiring) heavy to carry and load compared to touring boats, not so great for smaller folks
skegs- +helps beginners go straight, can make paddling the flats easier, - doesn’t promote learning corrective tracking skills that other ww boats promote
crossovers paddled: LL xp9, xp10, jackson rogue, I own an xp10, I really like the looks of the pyranha fusion’s ww package but have yet to paddle it
check out the review section of the paddle.net website for even more detailed info about specific crossover models
The Fusion has comfortable outfitting that provides a secure fit and it is easy to roll.
It is also considerably more efficient than the LL XPs and therefore much less painful to paddle of flat water. I am not at all surprised that the paddlers who did this review preferred it to the LL XP:
I have not paddled the relatively new Dagger Katana, but I have taken a close and careful look at the hull and talked to some who have. Based on that input, I suspect it might be a bit more efficient still. This reviewer certainly liked it:
yeah, if I was lookin’
for a new crossover I’d probably lean the fusions way or check out a couple of new hulls that are out there- the trade offs aren’t that big- smaller cockpit to climb in and out of, harder to stretch legs out with a bulkhead vs a better fit. The xps bow is great for surfing but I could probably adjust pretty quick to something new. Although I gotta say sometimes I don’t think with my brain at all. There was a “new looking” xp10 on the fence at gauley fest last night with the black and burnt cherry color combo that looked pretty sweet at $650.00 I passed on it but I found myself looking at it none the less.
Isn’t there a Stinger with gear hatches?
Even loaded, it should coast well.
Just spare me the skeg. I never needed one, not for anything.