There is a CL ad for a Kevlar Vision kayak. The CD website says it is only made in Kevlar/fiberglass “hybrid”. I called CD and they say they have never made the Vision in Kevlar.
I checked the local dealer’s website and find he is selling them in Kevlar. I called and asked the discrepancy. He says he has them custom made in Kevlar. They are the same weight, but stiffer. That seems really strange because Kevlar is very strong, but not any stiffer than fiberglass.
The CL list is honest enough; he bought a “Kevlar” boat from the local dealer. But is the local dealer honest? Could they (would they…) really have custom Kevlar boats made for them?
Current Designs
Current Designs Visions are frequently advertised by retailers as “Kevlar” but I’ve never seen one that wasn’t a hybrid with the Kevlar just used for the main floor because of its strength to weight ratio. And in fact the material used is actually an aramid fiber clone as Kevlar is a registered trademark of DuPont and not what CD uses.
Having said that I like those boats. My wife has a 130 and I have a 140 that we use for all but the rockiest shores and biggest water. They perform very well and are quite lightweight and easy to lift and carry.
There are also models that CD makes but never seems to advertise. Oak Orchard always has quite a few in stock with full carbon hulls and colours you’ll never see in a CD catalog or website.
http://www.oakorchardcanoe.com/currentdesign.php
I’ve never seen them offering a full Kevlar boat though!
Oak Orchard
– Last Updated: Sep-21-16 7:44 PM EST –
The "local dealer" I referred to actually was Oak Orchard.
Under Vision 140 they say "Shown here is the Vision 140 Kevlar with the super cushy Revolution seat at only 43 lbs. {or 46 lbs with rudder}
The Vision in Kevlar is a great combination of light weight and hull stiffness, strength, agility and longevity."
Sure seems to be claiming pure Kevlar. But if they have special colors and carbons made up, maybe they really do have special Kevlars made up.
I really don’t think so.
Let’s take the Vision 140 as an example.
CD’s website says “Composite Hybrid - 43 lbs” and “Standard Options Revolution Seating System”
Oak Orchard’s says “Shown here is the Vision 140 Kevlar with the super cushy Revolution seat at only 43 lbs”. Now, their carbon fiber version takes about 4 lbs off that.
The CD website also says…“Our composite Kestrel and Vision families are made from a fiberglass and polyaramid (a generic form of Kevlar®) laminate for ultimate stiffness. This Hybrid layup makes these boats more cost efficient yet still light weight”.
My understanding
is that there are no pure kevlar boats out there - it doesn’t stiffen up well enough without a more rigid material bonded to it, usually fiberglass. And even then, it’s usually a little more flexible than all-glass or carbon/glass layups.
We have 2 “kevlar” boats, and they are both glass/kevlar, but advertised as “Kevlar”.
hybrids
My Swift kayak is called Kevlar Fusion which is a combination Kevlar, Fiberglass and a honeycomb core. My Placid Boatworks Spifire is a combination of Carbon and Kevlar for a maximum Strength to weight ratio.
That sounds correct.
– Last Updated: Sep-22-16 10:13 AM EST –
That sounds correct on Kevlar builds never being all Kevlar.
Direct from CD website:
"We use genuine Dupont Kevlar® in our kayaks. You'll notice the lightness of our Kevlar® kayaks the first time you pick one up. You'll also appreciate its easy lift on and off the car and its intimate responsiveness on the water. Kevlar® is an optional layup for our Performance Touring models."
This would be the case for something like my Kevlar Gulfstream. The outer layer is glass, or something not Kevlar, which was evidenced by running into something I shouldn't have once and removing gelcoat down to the first layer. Then there are Kevlar layers. It is noticeably lighter than the all-fiberglass build. I've no evidence to date that it's any more fragile. Seems like a solid layup.
Here's the composite hybrid of the Vision series from the website. "Our composite hybrid kayaks are made from fiberglass, polyaramid and 3-D non-woven materials laminated together. These kayaks are stiff, lightweight and durable for all but severe conditions and are very price conscious."
I looked up a description of Polyaramid: "Any polymer formed from an aromatic amide; they are very strong, and are used in bulletproof vests etc"
I have a Unity tandem that was billed as a composite hybrid. I'm planning to paddle it this weekend. I would agree that my Unity isn't as stiff as my fiberglass or Kevlar layups from Current Designs. No problems with durability so far, and there are some broader sections on a tandem kayak that probably make it more evident, but there's more flex in that Unity layup that I own than the Current Designs fiberglass and Kevlar layups that I own.
I think I remember reading that the hybrid composite layup kayaks are outsourced - doing everything they could to make a quality price-conscious line. I think that just includes the Visions and the Unity. If you pull up individual kayaks on their website, all fiberglass, Kevlar, and poly boats have the "Made in USA" stamp, and I think are still made right in Wenonah, MN. The hybrid composites do not, so I'm guessing they're still manufactured elsewhere. The "very price conscious" is key here, and seems to be actually reflected in the retail pricing of these composite hybrids.
On my Unity, there is a very evident honeycomb-appearing layer when you look at the inside of it. A Kevlar or glass layup does not have this appearance. So if the shop has other Kevlar and fiberglass layups, you should be able to tell at a glance the difference, if they are in fact hybrid composite vs. Kevlar layups. If it looks the same as any other Kevlar Soltice, Caribou, Gulfstream, Prana, Nomad, etc., then it's probably a genuine, made in MN Kevlar layup.
China
– Last Updated: Sep-22-16 10:39 AM EST –
"I think I remember reading that the hybrid composite layup kayaks are outsourced - doing everything they could to make a quality price-conscious line. I think that just includes the Visions and the Unity. If you pull up individual kayaks on their website, all fiberglass, Kevlar, and poly boats have the "Made in USA" stamp, and I think are still made right in Wenonah, MN. The hybrid composites do not, so I'm guessing they're still manufactured elsewhere. The "very price conscious" is key here, and seems to be actually reflected in the retail pricing of these composite hybrids."
The CD composite hybrid hulls are made in China. I certainly don't think the quality is up to the MN built hulls but the fittings are excellent and they are in the $2200 price range rather than the $3500 price range.
My wife and I are quite happy with ours.
Oh...there are also a couple of CD rec boats, the 120 and 140 Kestrels that are also composite hybrids.
kevlar
– Last Updated: Sep-22-16 3:44 PM EST –
Comparing two CD Extremes side by side one with Kevlar and one in glass the Kevlar is stiffer. Pressing in the hull in the same spots and you can feel the difference. CD hybrid means made in china generic Kevlar. You can have about anything you want made by CD even Carbon Fiber on boats they make here in the USA. Seen a Extreme / Nomad with CF deck & hull. Hull was white deck see through CF looks great.
I called CD
– Last Updated: Sep-23-16 5:05 PM EST –
They say they have never made Kevlar Visions for anyone ever. The carbon fiber Visions are old stock from when they actually made carbon fiber boats.
They do not consider the hybrid Visions to be Kevlar, and don't advertise them as such.
I have a neighbor who is a fiberglass fabricator. He tells me Kevlar is significantly stiffer than fiberglass; but an awful lot depends on the resin and technique. He does not do Kevlar or carbon because the environmental requirements are tighter than he can manage.
Finally, the boat in questionis beat up more than I expected. I asked for $100 off and he refused; so the whole thing is academic.
He is continuing to call it Kevlar in his CL ad on the principle that if Oak Orchard can lie, so can he.
Interesting discussion though.
Agreed
CD’s website says…“Our composite Kestrel and Vision families are made from a fiberglass and polyaramid (a generic form of Kevlar®) laminate for ultimate stiffness. This Hybrid layup makes these boats more cost efficient yet still light weight”…
Which sounds perfectly reasonable and correct.