CLC Pax 20
While on the subject of fast kayaks, anyone with experience with the above care to tell is about this boat.
in a way I wish I hadn’t asked!!!
– Last Updated: Dec-15-07 11:37 PM EST –
I was simply to get the Freedom-now I'm having to study them all!
at the KayakPro.com site the stability ratings of the K1 kayaks seems daunting-ratings like '1' and '2'....the KayakPro Fit was a 5!
So an honest look at the application:
flat lakes and I'd want to carry one bag with the typical tube tent,food,change of clothes, ham radio,etc-this time of year its great to paddle but it'd be a while before they found you or your body.
Our lakes (TVA) are long-some 30 miles long and in a 10-15 mile paddle the conditions can and do change and I can see me 2 hours out and it going from perfectly flat to 2 foot waves with the tops blowing off-did 10 miles of that on Watauga on Monday..on Tuesday did 8 miles on Cherokee and it was dead calm....but the goal is fitness paddling. I've already got a dedicated rolling kayak and a dedicated paddle camping kayak.
So if you paddlers who have actually made the switch from a true sea kayak to a 'fitness' kayak which one given the above needs would you pick?
Forgot to add that I dont mind tippy.
Also, I didn't see a price listed for a carbon/kev Think Fit-what does it run?
Thanks.
You Sure?
Smiling as I type this. There are a number of the Jets/Razors on the For Sale lists at any given time. I’ve paddled both of them, although not for any length of time, finding them to be more tender and not a whole lot faster or more efficient than a fast sea kayak like an 18X. Both have minimal volume in the bow and pick up leaves and debris like cow catchers, if you’re in weedy areas. The main advantage I see to these boats is in the K-1 like seating position, with pedestal seats that are often adjustable for trim and height, and the narrow foredeck catch. They are nice for working on stroke mechanics.
Lack of bulkheads IMO is a PITA at best and a true liability at worst on more open water. You won’t ever see the need for them or usefulness until you’re in situation when the cockpit has so filled with water that it’s impossible to pump out, and a fully submerged boat in wind is not an easy craft to swim in to shore. Ask me how I know this. 
If you’re going distances as you noted where the conditions could conceivably kick up, I’d not want to be in one of these. If you’re always with a group, that’s less of an issue, but solo… A ski would be better, but in colder temps will be a wet, cold ride. Even wind driven dumping waves will blow in your large cockpit skirt (if using one) and fill your bulkheadless cockpit muy pronto. I wish you could try my Westside EFT-it sounds perfect for your needs, if a bit on the long side. It’s every bit as fast as any of the Razors or Jets, if not faster, gives you a wide cockpit that you can hook your knees under the coaming of to either roll (it rolls easily) or brace against if the waters kick up. It truly is ocean capable, and you can spec it with over/understern rudders (or both), rear bulkhead and crude, but cavernous rear hatch for your kit. Build quality is strong, strong, strong, and mine comes in with the bells and whistles at an honest 36 lbs.-the carbon will be lighter. It’s a brilliant design; read the reviews. Plus, if you decide to race it, it slots into Touring class.
If you’re set on the fitness boats, the Kayakpro and Current Designs have good reps for build quality. Gray at Kayakpro will be more than helpful in setting you up. Good luck in your quest.
M
cd freedom
the freedom should be a fast boat. I raced the stratus extensively for two years in the ocean, lake superior,lakes and rivers and found it to be quick. The two problems I found were a bow that liked to bury in heavy following seas and a rudder system that didn’t get the job done as good as it should have. I now understand that the bow on the freedom caries some ‘bulb’ which should keep that nose in the topside where it belongs and the rudder is a smart track which should be an improvement so kudos to cd for listening to suggestions and making improvements. I can only make these observations based on a few hundred hours of training/racing and not on what i have read about the boat. I would remind that the engine you put in the hull will make a diffeence in what you get out of it.
Different boat,
same hull, no bulkheads, 33lbs kevlar(skimpy), especially without internal reinforcement.
HEX
OK thanks and a lasts question
Thanks for all the info…I feel like I’m delving into yet another world of paddling.
The question- where is Westside EFT. I searched via yahoo and didn’t find a website. Is Westside the manufacturer and EFT the model? The reason I ask is that I think I saw one on the craiglist but couldn’t find a website for the company like you can with WS,CD,Valley,etc…maybe I’m just daft.
never mind—
big difference in searching for westside versus west side!
I don’t get it either
A recycling attempt on a poor seller? Stratus seemed to come out a bit late as an also ran competitor for a market segment already served well by EPIC and QCC - and later taken up a notch by KayakPro. Only one I’ve ever seen was a demo boat being raced by a rep.
I have to wonder what the response would be to a similarly re-decked QCC 700 brought out under a new name (Didn’t Envyabull have an all white one custom ordered with no hatches a lot like this years ago?).
On the other hand- if EPIC did it - and right - with proper seat and rudder controls - could be a decent mixed condition day/fitness platform - but it would still need to be significantly lighter and cheaper than an 18x to get interest.
Here it is
– Last Updated: Dec-18-07 12:04 AM EST –
http://westsideboatshop.com/
Look under high-performance touring kayaks.
Myself, I like the Delta and want to try one some day --- but then I like short little boats (Coaster) and cars (Mini Cooper) that go fast --- don't want that excess skin friction...
Whoops, nevermind, just realized you found it already, must be time for bed.
ICF Trainer
I’m glad CD is introducing an ICF type fitness yak. Before I started fitness paddling and racing, I’d never heard of Epic or QCC, but I had heard of CD, necky, etc. I started off as a ww paddler and had never been exposed to an ICF sprint k-1. In Atlanta, we have very few paddling shops and even fewer that sell sea kayaks and none that sell ICF sprint boats.
I could see someone browsing CD’s website and thinking the boat was neat. Because it is 21.75" wide, it would be very stable. I suspect it is probably more stable then my laser (19") or the kayak pro jet. My SRS Laser is very stable, but many of my friends are turned off by the tippiness of the boat. Perhaps, something like the CD Freedom will get more folks into performance paddling.
Anyway, I think it is a step in the right direction for a mainstream kayak company making a fitness boat.
Jamie
Not an ICF trainer,
Does not fit into ICF dimensions, it’s a stripped down Sea Kayak.
HEX
well for me after summating all
I’ve decided to go with the KayakPro Jet.
When its built I’ll ask for the bulkheads and the screw hatches in the bulkheads…hopefully the screw hatch will be big enough for a small dry bag and a hydration bladder.
The bottom line is the 22 pound weight. Eric’s already cautioned me against impacts with the marathon layup-if I’m thinking about hitting rocks I’ll grab the Jubilee or the day.
Since I’ve spent some time in a Looksha II I dont think the transition will be too painful.
Thanks again for the introduction to this type kayak and helping me decide.
Congrats,
and enjoy, keep us posted. You will see your stroke improve with the boat, tight catch, proper sitting position, footboard will encourage full use of legs. It will be the start of skinnier and faster boats still.
HEX
I’m not sure that the…
laser or jet are ICF trainers, but people use them as such. I raced a SRS Arrow k-2 at the 06 Sprint Masters Nations. The Arrow is a funny looking boat that can be converted from a k-2 to a k-1 touring boat. It is extremely stable. I won two medals. In one race, we won a medal simply because the other boaters ahead of us were in a very tippy boat and they flipped.
My club got rid of the Arrow. It’s a shame because I had just about talked some of my friends in trying a sprint race in this thing because it was so stable.
Folks don’t get into to ICF sprint and marathon racing because the boats are so tippy and can’t be used for anything other than fitness paddling and racing. It would seem the CD Freedom is a great transition boat for those (especially adult paddlers) that are accustomed to sea kayaks, but are intimidated by the ICF type yaks.
A changed deck and seat…
… doesn’t really make for much of a transition. Yes, you’d be sitting a little higher, and so get little more stability challenge, and some improvement in paddler’s position, but the catch on the the Stratus/Freedom is not very narrow compared to the other options, and you’d still be paddling a sea kayak hull.
If I wanted a sea kayak class hull for more serious fitness/racing use I’d be looking at a Nemo/Marlin. Decent weight, good seat, significantly faster hull design, and a much more versatile kayak.
For a transitional kayak - to go more into flat water and eventually on to faster kayaks - I’d be looking at a Think Fit or KayakPro Jet (or WSBS EFT). These seem like much better transitional platforms. Lighter, faster, better setups. (If Fit/Jet are same hull as Hex says - then the self bailing/gas pedal Fit would likely win out).
As for stability (after a brief flat water test - thanks to Hex) I would say the Jet is noticeably more tender than my QCC 700 (similar to my 19" wide friendly but a little more attention getting SOF) - but not very much so. I found it VERY stable/manageable for the sort of kayak it is. It should be an easy transition from a sea kayak, and offer just enough difference to make it worth it and get you part way toward the next level better than a converted sea kayak hull.
When I look at the Freedom I get the impression that CD wants revenue from the fitness kayaking segment, but doesn’t want to invest in designing/marketing new kayaks specifically for that market. I hope that one toe in the water / recycling strategy works out for them. Maybe I’m just not in the target market for the Freedom, but it doesn’t work for me.
The Freedom might work well enough for a lot of people, but it doesn’t stand out from the other options or offer anything better - or even equivalent. It also doesn’t have the fitness market appeal of an EPIC, THINK, KayakPro, or any of the entry level offerings from the other racing boat makers, ski makers, etc.
The fast paddler wannabees (myself included) may never really need anything beyond a Stratus/freedom’s performance for workout paddles - but we still like to dream. The other brands suit that sort of dreaming better (psychology is important), and their offerings give a little better chance of actually getting better, and I think this makes things pretty tough for the Freedom.
Greyak,According to THINK
FIT is a tad flatter just behind the cockpit than the JET, so slightly more stable, and you know what that probably means speedwise.
HEX
Think Kayaks
A friend of mine just bought a think kayak. I asked him what the model was and he didn’t remember. He had a tippier ICF K-1 and wanted something more stable so he bought this think. It has the conformed seat like a surf ski, but is a sit in design like an ICF K-1.
I wonder if this is the think fit kayak that your talking about. I went to the think website and I can’t find any descriptions or photos on their website. Gathering from the website, they only make evo and fit kayaks so I’m assuming his kayak is a fit. Is this right?
Has to be…
… and there are pictures on the site (but they could use a LOT more).
Fitness Kayaks
I started this thread and since then my list of candidate kayaks has grown.
Kayakpro Jet
Epic 18X
Think Fit
QCC Q700
WestSide EFT
and the CD Freedom
I would like to hear more about the Fit, this looks like a real possibility for me. I paddle by myself on mostly flat water. Less than 40 lbs is good for easy cartopping with my full size Ford van. The Think website does not have much information and the link to their nearest dealer (Seattle) has died. I am near Portland, OR.
My friend…
really likes his think fit. He hasn’t had a problem car topping it, but then again he owns a porshe.
I’ve never paddled his boat, but I’m sure it is pretty stable. He ordered it and they shipped it to him in Atlanta.
You might need to call them directly. I think that is what he did. He hadn’t even demoed it, but once he paddled it he really liked it because it was so stable.