Dagger Axis 12.0 vs LL Remix 10

I am close to buying my first boat. My main question is will the length of the 12.0 Axis ($799) make is track better and be faster than a LL Remix 10 ($999)?

My other 2 choices are if I decide to get a touring type boat. I found a Prijon Yukon Expedition used for $600 and a Delta 12.10 for $1200.

I’ve done a lot of research and many of you have helped me out so thanks. That being said I am still confused!! Help.

I have never been in an Axis, but I have it the Remix. I imagine they are similar - atleast they are build for similar markets. The Remix is a whitewater boat and as such tracks very poorly. The skeg helps some but only some. Compared to your average 14 ft rec boat it is very slow and tracks poorly. It is a very good whitewater boat that has a skeg that makes it a little less bad on flat river stretches. The Remix (and likely the Axis) is a great choice if this is what you are looking for. I suspect from you post you may be looking for something a bit different.


MAIN purpose

– Last Updated: Jul-19-13 9:46 PM EST –

What is the primary, most important, feature you want ?
1.) speed
2.) tracking
3.) maneuverability
4.) touring
What are you willing to give up, to get what you want ?

Compromise and understanding are keys to purchase,
which makes the "on-the-water" demo oh so insightful.

Is that length thing 10, 12, 14, 16 a real factor
and why does it matter to you, as an individual ?

What geography is within 2 hours drive of your place
as it will play a huge role in the weekend paddling trip ?

Taking a 12 foot boat on big water like the
Great Lakes or Detroit River can be an "issue"
depending on changing wind and weather conditions

my opinion…

– Last Updated: Jul-20-13 1:16 PM EST –

.I also have a Remix XP10 ...boat tends to plow in rough water/waves.. good for WW, not so good for flat water ...XP is not a fast boat by any standard IMO....Fast is relative to amount of effort spent paddling, can't say it's " glide" is all that great either but its a good boat for streams, small narrow rivers , etc. or if your not in a hurry to get someplace. Unless u plan on doing WW or fast moving river's ..I vote for the Axis. Any boat will get thru quiet water OK , just depends on your tolerance for how well it glides/slides thru water VS paddling effort. 1 last note...your legs are pretty much locked into a limited position in the Remix unless u take the center floatation out. Also, 10 VS 12 ? ...that's only 1 foot more on each end and exactly how much of the boat is actually in the water vs sticking up in the air....2 ft is not a lot. how much foot room in the Axis? i can keep my feet vertical (size 9) in the Remix.

djo, the skeg will not make up for lack
of proper paddling technique. If the skeg on your XP10 isn’t helping enough, you need to find a kayak instructor in your area.

The trick is “cab forward”, high angle paddling. A good forward reach, a firm catch, and get the paddle blade out before it passes your butt.

You will feel like your strokes are pulling the boat forward by the nose.

Don’t imitate low angle sea kayak and rec kayak paddlers. Their technique will never work for kayaks designed for some whitewater use.

I have not seen Dagger’s latest crossover efforts, but Liquid Logic has had it all over them up until recently.

If you can’t or won’t do what I say, ditch the crossover kayak concept and get a pure touring kayak.

Own Both Now
I have had a Dagger Axis 12 now for a few years – I think replied to some of your previous questions on here.

I just recently bought a Remix XP 10 a week ago – $800 was hard to pass up. I have zero butt time in mine yet – heat and too busy with work. I have tried out someone elses XP a bit, which had it on my shortlist, but my time in the kayak is pretty low right now.

I didn’t have problems with the tracking in the XP10 and it is better with the skeg down. But the Axis probably is easier keeping straight. I probably keep the skeg up more than putting it down in my Axis.

The XP has a rounded bow and stern so you do getting it pushing water if you try to go fast. The Axis will push water as well but it is not as bad as the XP. From what I have seen the Axis really is more a flatwater kayak of the two but the XP isn’t bad. I wouldn’t do 8 hours on a lake or flat river in the XP as my first choice. I have done that many times in my Axis.

The Axis is good in moving water and the lower level rapids but I have had trouble getting hung up on rocks due to the hull design. Also in whitewater you more just run straight through the rapids. I also like to explore shallow streams – the XP is probably better for this being a bit shorter and a shallower draft. I have added thigh braces and hip pads to my Axis.

The XP is a lot tougher in construction. The outfitting is really nice but I am still tweaking it to fit me right. The Axis seat is great out of the box for comfort – I still like more back support and the thigh raisers really help me. It is a rec seat so more for comfort than good paddling performance position. Of course that performance position isn’t the most comfortable for everyone and may require toughing up to the pain or custom fitting the cockpit for you, which is what I am doing with my XP now.

I bought the XP for whitewater but where I am whitewater always comes with sections of flat paddling and we don’t have lot of tough whitewater.

It is probably easier to take a flat water longer kayak through easy whitewater rapids – you just go straight and turn to avoid getting stuck – then it is to have a whitewater kayak do long periods of flatwater.