Another problem is that unless
big boats slow way down they cause an even bigger wake then if they are going fast and most big boats are going faster than they look. Go out on the ocean heading into NY City and check out the speed of some of the freighters heading into NY.
agree
Your descriptions sound like a lot of bicycle riders I encounter daily on my way to work on a 50 mph designated truck route.
Mamma used to tell me
Yes dear you have the right of way but he is driving a bus.
Greyak … you are NOT alone.
wrong wrong wrong
A kayak that can make four, five or six knots in an all out sprint is the less maneuverable when faced with a 40-60’ craft bearing down at 12, 14, or 16kts or more with room to bear. Waving a paddle is in accordance with the cardinal rule of right of way: You do WHATEVER you can to avoid collision. The bottom line is that if such a commercial boat flips and drowns a paddler because they came too close and had plenty of leeway, they are going to be correctly and legally held responsible.
NO, you do not knowingly and clearly paddle in the apparent path of a large commercial vessel. But NO vessel is permitted to run down another clearly spotted, they are required to steer well enough clear as to insure the safety of both parties if they are able.
2 many
People
THE GOLDEN RULE…
They that gots the gold makes the rules…
The Law of Gross Tonnage (and sometimes it really IS gross)…
Well, folks, maybe we’re right… …and maybe we’re also DEAD right!
(As a transportation planner, I see a lot of the analogous situations between heavy trucks and personal vehicles, and between motorized vehicles and bikes.)
When I’m out down here on Biscayne Bay where the flyin fishes play, along with jetski cowboys & cowgirls, Miami Vice wannabes (speaking of which, BTW, they’re shutting down the southern most 3 miles of Interstate -I-95 -to film a remake of Miami Vice this week here in Miami), joyriding families, anglers in a hurry, and trawler cabin cruisers with blind weekend helmsmen and women at the wheel, I just keep a VERY wary wether eye out on anything that has power when we’re in the same neighborhood.
And just because they may see you, don’t mean they do anything different, folks. And I’m not particularly talking intent, here, either. Some of our weekend water warriors may not know what they do, even if they think they’re not endangering you.
Unfortunately, they have the money to buy a boat? The they have the right to “drive” a boat! Rules? Regulations? Seagoing courtesy?
They’re largely ignorant of the Big STuff, let alone the nuances.
That wake they throw is FUN, friends -THEY like riding wakes, why shouldn’t YOU?
No wake zone? That means no funerals, I do believe…
SO I really think it’s incumbent on us paddlers to think about the route when we’re out, and what situations are possibly, let alone probable.
It’s called planning, and because of The Golden Rule, The Rule of Gross Tonnage, and the “We were RIGHT (and now maybe DEAD right)” situation some of us may find ourselves in and escape from, I think it’s a pretty good thing to do a little scenario-running in your mind beforehand.
Planning,prevention’s that’s maybe the best medicine, and disgression do well to be used, as we, in “mixed company”,
PADDLE ON!
-Frank in Miami
I beg to differ.
waterdoc wrote: “I hear too many kayakers claiming that they have the “right of way” because they are small boats that are hand powered. I suggest they read the “Rules”. There are very specific situations that set forth who has the “right of way”, and it is not based on whether your engine burns petroleum products or carbohydrates.”
I beg to differ. I’ve not yet found anything specifically addressing human-powered craft in the US Coast Guard regulations (anyone have this?), but the regulations for my home waters of Wisconsin http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement/docs/BoatingRegs.pdf state, under Traffic Rules, “When a motorboat and a boat propelled entirely by sail or musclepower are proceeding in such a direction as to involve risk of collision, the motorboat shall yield the right-of-way.”
Additionally, under Speed Restrictions, “It is unlawful to create hazardous wakes.”
I’m really ambivalent regarding the general idea that “Might makes right”, or “He with the most horsepower rules”. Commonsense dictates that I not toss my kayak into the path of an oncoming powerboat. Likewise, good sense–and the law, in some places–dictates that a larger, faster, more maneuverable vessel must not run down, or throw a dangerous wake into, a smaller, weaker vessel.
waterdoc wrote: “… get the skills necessary to paddle with the big boys or stay on small ponds.”
As my own skills have progressed, I have become less intimidated by boat wakes and in some cases take advantage of them to play around and sharpen my skills. But not all paddlers are able to do so. Should they be required to forfeit their legal right to use the water in safety?
Greyak wrote: “Maybe we just need to be boaters and not act like a bunch of uptight Grannies waving our fists at the other motorists while we drive 15 mph on the Interstate?”
This metaphor would hold water were it not for the legal minimum speed, typically “forty‑five miles per hour in a speed zone of 60 miles per hour or greater.” If there were similar legal postings on lakes and other public waterways, stating, “All craft must be a minimum of 40 feet in length, and capable of a minimum speed of 20 knots, no whiners allowed”, I may be inclined to agree. But in fact, many state laws express the exact OPPOSITE. That is, they give legal right of way to lesser-powered sail- and human-powered craft.
To continue with the motor vehicle metaphor, does a 60,000-lb, 400 horsepower, Peterbilt have the legal right of way over your little econobox? Is such a weighty working vehicle exempt from stop signs, lane markings, and speed limits?
To relinquish the laws of the land to the laws of physics is to accept anarchy. In the words of George Costanza, “We’re trying to have a SOCIETY here …!”
Tour Boats
The Pictured Rocks tour boats have been operating along the lakeshore long before kayaking became popular in the area (I believe they started operations just after World War II). You can’t expect them to slow down just because you are there. You just have to be aware of your surroundings and pay attention. We had no problem maneuvering our kayak into the wave from the wake when we kayaked along the PRNL. We saw the boat and prepared ourselves for the wake. We did this when we were pretty green to kayaking. I probably could handle the situation a little better now. Were we nervous at the time? Sure, but I still wouldn’t expect the tour boat to make an exception for us. They are just doing their job which they have been doing for years.
Yes, they throw a nasty wake. You should see it up close. We also ride our PWC in the area and have to cross their wakes while the tour boat is under full power. It is a wake that even on a PWC is nasty. The wake is so large the PWC goes through the wake rather than over it and you end up getting soaked. I think the large wake is largely due to the design of the tour boats.
As for their wakes creating an erosion problem, have you ever seen Lake Superior at its best? You should see the waves that can kick up on the lake, especially in October or November. You may think again about the tour boat wakes causing more erosion than the lake itself.
"But I had the right-of-way!"
Like I tell my club members, “Yes, do you want that carved on your headstone?”
Lake Superior waves
Scoop mentions the waves. They are indeed awesome. Some years back I had the good fortune to hike part of the cliffline when the wind was up, and shortly after a good storm. I could feel the ground vibrate when the waves hit. It was just awesome to stand there and watch these waves crash into the coves in the cliffline. I like watching the lake when it’s all churned up like that.
Bogus arguments
I do not agree with the “powerboaters were there first” line of argument. Using that reasoning, swimming takes precedence over all other forms of water transportation. And hiking takes precedence over all other forms of land transportation.
I agree a little, but only a little, with the “they are working and you are playing” line of argument. We might do well to expect that working boaters are in a hurry but that doesn’t give them the right to run us over.
Specific laws about right-of-way might vary by state.
But matters of courtesy do not! While it is possible that the boat operator did not see your paddle waving, if he did, it would have been decent of him to steer slightly away from you (if possible).
Maybe you were too close to the cliffs in the first place. Maybe you misjudged how big a wake that boat would throw. Now you know.
If I had been in that situation I wouldn’t have wasted any time waving my paddle. When we were in AK, the cruise ships threw the biggest wakes but they came literally minutes after we’d seen them pass by. Those were fun to play with. The most dangerous wake we experienced came after a smaller–but very much faster–vessel sped by and the wake roared up as we were literally next to some cliffs. There was nothing left to do but turn into the wakes and paddle as hard as possible.
It’s your call
Although I do not agree with THEY ARE WORKING, YOU ARE HAVING FUN concept (do you give way to all taxi drivers?) or THEY HAVE BEEN THERE WAY BEFORE YOU (which kind of BS is that?) you have to use common sense, they are bigger and they will hurt you.
In favor of power boaters I also have to say that too many kayakers do not know anything about navigation rules.
Pedestrians Have Right Of Way, BUT
The most basic rule of marine right of way is that the more manuverable vessel has to give right of way to the less manuverable vessel.
Except in very tight quarters, power boats are almost always more manurerable, they SHOULD give right of way.
Pedestrians also always have right of way, but it is still stupid to step in front of a moving truck....You are betting your life he will see you, and stop.
For all you know this guy has been on the road for 16 hours straight. He just found out his wife has left him for his best friend, and he just don't care. Or he has been drinking since dawn.
On Lake Tahoe I get severe stink eye from tour boat operators. I can tell they would just love to run me under the bow. Especially crossing the bay to get to Fanete Island.
They hate having to dodge kayakers in Emerald Bay. Sometimes there are lots of kayakers, and pleasure boaters, and they don't have much room to go between. Boats don't have brakes...
BUT the tourists would be upset if the operator endangered the nice kayaker in the cute little boat. I always make a point to wave and smile at the nice tourists...
But basicly, if you can't handle the boat traffic, you need to find somewhere else to paddle. Why trust your safety of strangers?
Posts show how little many know
The main drift here imo is that many paddlers have very dogmatic opinions about who is responsible and who is not, yet have either inaccurate or wrong information. What I don’t understand is when really competent expert people take the time to share with us many just dismiss it before even considering it.
If I were one of those expert competent people I would think twice before wasting my time posting. Great place to share different opinions but holy cow!
How is wanting to live longer wrong? L
Your arguments simply don’t bear up.
Waving a paddling is not doing all you can to avoid a collision - it is putting ALL the burden on the other vessel and expecting them to see you and take action. It would be far more prudent to take action yourself - You are the one that perceives the danger and sees the threat. The other may or may not.
Less maneuverable? A kayak can be brought to a stop from any speed in 1-2 boat lengths and only a couple seconds - then reverse course as quickly. A kayak can turn at full speed in a smaller circle than any motor boat at that same or greater speed. We can even turn in place!!! If you disagree with any of that - you need to work on your paddling skills!
You can be “right” all you want (even though you are not here), but sometimes being “right” is not the best thing. This "right"eous attitude is common among the “paddle wavers” and “wake quakers” who seem to feel privileged and in need of preferential treatment - when in fact they are simply less capable boaters who are not adequately prepared to deal with the conditions they find themselves in!
As for the legalities, any vessel operator that killed a paddler could pretty easily convince people that the kayak was not visible to them - (and probably not operating in a safe manner) and would be unlikely to result in any punishment.
It’s called: AN ACCIDENT.
Even a civil suit by the family would be unlikely to have merit and result in an award unless there was evidence of blatant misconduct and informed/qualified witnesses to back up such an assertion.
Everyone that is NOT a paddler KNOWS we are crazy and have no business being on the water with motor traffic in the first place. We as paddlers of course disagree, but the prevailing mentality would rule the day if there were an incident.
It is far more likely such an event would result in restriction on PADDLERS in the area! The potential of this is part of why I so strongly urge personal responsibility/accountability and refuse to put the responsibility for paddlers safety with anyone but the paddlers. Otherwise, the whiners who have not figured out how to operate with mixed vessels will eventually ruin access for the rest of us.
Try thinking big picture and how we are perceived - and WHY! Those who might be biased against paddlers have some very good reasons. Safety and commerce related reasons that carry a lot more weight that some individuals feisty but wrongheaded assertions that paddlers should be given special treatment by other operators on the waterways. Individuals who can’t operate with other traffic will not be given much consideration - and rightly so. We should operate in ways that present NO danger or inconvenience to any other vessels - period.
Power boats are more maneuverable?
That’s just not possible and violates physical laws.
I’m surprised at you 'cuda! Are you saying you can’t turn a kayak in a tighter circle than a motor boat or PWC? You can’t stop or reverse course in a shorter distance? Come on man, what sort of maneuvering are you talking about? Aerial? L
Holy Cow
Yes, the Sacred Cow has the ultimate right of way.
Did you read the original post?
The complaint was about a wake, not a collision risk.
Common sense…
… has always enjoyed limited distribution. Same with correct understanding of the law.
The biggest mistake I see is people seem take these encounters personally and let their emotions dictate their position.
Perhaps more telling is a tendency I see for the opinions to be split somewhat along coastal vs. inland paddlers. That alone should tell people something…