On the Rogue the tour boats are Jet
boats. No way any paddler is going to get out of the way if they’re surprised by one. I try to listen for the roar of an engine but am sometimes surprised. Some of the pilots make an effort to slow down and some do not and blow by me. I guess you can make the argument that I shouldn’t be on the river if I don’t want to deal with discourteous and sometimes dangerous Jet boat pilots. That’s true, but them being “Pros” don’t make them right and me wrong. Just like on the road, we paddlers have to paddle defensively and follow the rules of the water if we want to survive on the water. Anyway, I have more of a chance of getting creamed on the road driving to the river by a “Pro” log-truck driver than on the river by a “Pro” Jet boat pilot.
Maneuverability
I suspect that 'cuda means to suggest that there is more to maneuverability than the ability to steer. Power must also be considered, too, and many state boating agencies evidently agree, hence the laws granting right of way to lesser-powered craft. Sure, a paddle- or sailcraft can turn on a dime, but what good is that when it is unable to quickly accelerate out of the path of an oncoming powerboat?
We should also recognize the distinction between a smaller tour boat such as the one in question http://www.picturedrocks.com/frames_maine.html and larger, oceangoing craft http://www.ascoffanscuff.com/iocc/sept/sept04.html
An ore/ oil freighter at speed has no more maneuverability or stopping ability than a loaded freight train. Do not attempt to exert your right of way to stop or deter it. A smaller pleasure craft or 20-passenger tour boat, however, is far more maneuverable, and can reasonably be expected to comply with the law.
The Rule of Gross Tonnage
The Rule of Gross Tonnage has nothing to do with “might makes right” or “we were here first” or any of the other silly emotional positions the “paddle wavers” want to get upset about here.
The rule is a simple recognition of what vessels of various speed and size are capable of - and more importantly what they are NOT capable of.
The rule is not about anyone’s right to be on the water, or anyone having more rights or privileges than anyone else. It’s about safe coexistence of disparate vessel types. As operators of some of the most disparate vessels on the waters, paddlers need to understand it just as well as Super Tanker captains do.
I keep myself safe
both driving and playing on the water by never expecting anyone to do anything. If they are out for number one, so am I. I move and don’t complain… unless it’s some old guy that cut me off - then I honk.
Again
"Waving a paddling is not doing all you can to avoid a collision - it is putting ALL the burden on the other vessel and expecting them to see you and take action."
You’re misconstruing my statement. No, waving a paddle is not ALL you can do, I never said that. I said you do “anything” you can to avoid collision, and waving a paddle is certainly something. If you have time you obviously paddle out of the way. If you don’t waving a paddle may be all you have.
“It would be far more prudent to take action yourself - You are the one that perceives the danger and sees the threat. The other may or may not.”
You’re making the assumption with that statement that the kayakers always see everything. If you read my post, you will see I continually assert that you do whatever you can to avoid collision. You say “The other may or may not” see you. Well to the “other” I AM the other. In other words, maybe I don’t see him until last minute, maybe he doesn’t see me until last minute.
“Less maneuverable? A kayak can be brought to a stop from any speed in 1-2 boat lengths and only a couple seconds - then reverse course as quickly. A kayak can turn at full speed in a smaller circle than any motor boat at that same or greater speed. We can even turn in place!!! If you disagree with any of that - you need to work on your paddling skills!”
Well, I always work on my paddling skills. But none of what you say makes a difference, because you don’t understand the concept of maneuverability in the context of maritime right of way. I may be able to do FLIPS in my kayak, but it doesn’t change the fact that a much faster moving vessel can change a smaller course and provide greater leeway between both vessels in a much shorter amount of time. I may be able to turn 180 degrees in 2 seconds, but that still doesn’t mean I can always paddle out of the path of a fast moving vessel.
“feel privileged and in need of preferential treatment - when in fact they are simply less capable boaters who are not adequately prepared to deal with the conditions they find themselves in”
Kayakers may be a real PITA to a commercial vessel in a crowded area, I’ll admit that. And there may be a good sized contingent of kayakers who don’t know what they are doing and won’t take steps to avoid collision because they expect that super tanker 300 yards away to adeptly steer around them. But you’re on the other extreme end of the spectrum, and you seem to be of the mind that the kayakers are always at fault. Of course, the truth is that neither stance is correct.
“As for the legalities, any vessel operator that killed a paddler could pretty easily convince people that the kayak was not visible to them - (and probably not operating in a safe manner) and would be unlikely to result in any punishment.”
It’s called “proper watch” Greyak. If a reasonably maneuverable vessel runs down a kayaker that couldn’t move out of the way, they are going to be held responsible. “I didn’t see them” doesn’t get the operator off the hook, because the point is that they should have. Kayaks are not invisible.
”It’s called: AN ACCIDENT.”
Yes, it’s called an accident. People go to jail and get sued for accidents every day.
“Try thinking big picture and how we are perceived - and WHY!”
I’ll tell you why other boaters hate us: Because they don’t know the rules of the road either.
“We should operate in ways that present NO danger or inconvenience to any other vessels - period.”
The ONLY way that happens is to stay off the water altogether. You argument sounds like you think kayakers should be the whipping boys of the nautical world.
We are a BITCH for fast boats to steer around and lookout for, and they despise us for it. But that doesn’t mean that we have to stay off the water.
Yes
The subject brings up broader issues. It’s just discussion, not a trial.
Maneuverable Because They Have Speed
On open water it is a lot easier for a power boat to avoid a kayak than it is for kayak to get out of the way!
EXCEPT maybe in very tight quarters, at very low speeds, like in a marina.
But I quess it also depends on the size of the "power" boat. I am not thinking about ocean going cruise ships.
Yes, but
we have to be careful in these discussions not to let it just become “kayaks good, powerboats bad.” I’ve been on the other side of some of these arguments with Greyak in the past when I thought he was using a situation in which powerboaters really were behaving badly as a point of departure for the same points he’s making here, but on this one, I think those points are perfectly appropriate. Powerboats should keep a lookout and shouldn’t be obnoxious, but they should also be entitled to go about their business without having to assume that kayakers are incapable of handling normal water conditions, including boat wakes.
Last-minute maneuvers
It is easier for a powerboat to suddenly change course and avoid hitting a “slow object” than the other way around. So it’s really not a matter of purely maneuvering but also of maneuvering plus speed. No question who has more speed.
Jet skiiers have lots of both. If one were heading straight toward you at high speed, it would be easier for him/her to avoid you than it would be for you to avoid him, no matter how fast or skilled a paddler you are.
Trouble is, sometimes the fast ones just don’t SEE who else is out there. So driving defensively is the only smart thing, long-term. That still doesn’t mean faster/bigger is legally entitled to do whatever they want.
agreed greyak
…and again…
“If you have time you obviously paddle out of the way. If you don’t waving a paddle may be all you have.”
OK, so what’s enough time? You would normally only need to move one boat length to avoid a collision. Usually less as you will not be perpendicular. Sometimes much less.
How long does it take to move that far? About as long as it takes to raise the paddle in the air and get in one good wave. Meanwhile your paddle in in the air and OUT OF THE WATER where it belongs and the only place it can move or help steady you! (If you’re going to say that’s not true with a 100 ft wide cargo ship, and you might have to move several boat lengths to get clear, I’ll agree - but then I have to ask you how you missed a 100 foot wide cargo ship in the first place AND why you were lingering in the channel instead of ample time to get across and/or running parallel until you do!).
“…I don’t see him until last minute, maybe he doesn’t see me until last minute.”
If it comes down to that - you’re probably going to get hit (and it’s likely to be a small go fast boat - not a ship). Pretty rare, but then that’s an ACCIDENT. Stuff happens. I still want the paddle in combat position ready to paddle, brace, or roll - NOT overhead waving in the wind. Your life - your call L!
“I may be able to turn 180 degrees in 2 seconds, but that still doesn’t mean I can always paddle out of the path of a fast moving vessel.”
Then you are either not keeping a proper eye on traffic, or do not know how to estimate speeds - OR it’s one of those rare unavoidable last second small go fast boat type ACCIDENTS (BTW - when’s the last time you read about one?).
“Kayakers may be a real PITA to a commercial vessel in a crowded area, I’ll admit that. And there may be a good sized contingent of kayakers who don’t know what they are doing and won’t take steps to avoid collision because they expect that super tanker 300 yards away to adeptly steer around them. But you’re on the other extreme end of the spectrum, and you seem to be of the mind that the kayakers are always at fault.”
No, that’s exactly what I’m saying here. I’m talking specifically about those unrealistic expectations and misinterpretations of right of way. Nothing anti-paddler or pro-motor about it. I am not looking at any of this as us vs. them. I only see “us”, and a set of rules that work for all.
“It’s called “proper watch” Greyak. If a reasonably maneuverable vessel runs down a kayaker that couldn’t move out of the way, they are going to be held responsible. “I didn’t see them” doesn’t get the operator off the hook, because the point is that they should have. Kayaks are not invisible.”
I agree (FYI - I have stood watch and been a lookout on a VERY large vessel - big enough to not be able to see boats under sail crossing in front of us from the bridge!), but again, there is a thing called an ACCIDENT where things are done right and things still go wrong.
It is generally understood in maritime circles that kayaks ARE practically invisible, regularly DO NOT follow rules, understand channel markers, or properly estimate speeds. They often operate irregularly and unpredictably (like some equally clueless motor operators). You can pretty much guarantee that all WOULD certainly be taken into account in any investigation.
“Yes, it’s called an accident. People go to jail and get sued for accidents every day.”
That’s really a separate issue within an overly litigious society. Has nothing to do with proper operation directly.
I have yet to read of an actual kayak/motor vessel collision. Seems it must happen, but I know of none personally. For something comparable, look at the fatal accident in AZ a couple years ago (misreported as a kayak accident) where a motor boat ran over a one man rowing scull. In that case the motor boat clearly was more maneuverable in both speed and agility. It was getting up on plane and didn’t see the scull. The rower facing rearward apparently didn’t see of hear the boat (good time to duck dive if he had!). By your rationale the motor boat operator should be in prison, but to my knowledge no charges filed or even considered (though I certainly could be wrong as the news tends to drop these sort of things after the initial story). I would expect that to be the norm - not an exception.
“I’ll tell you why other boaters hate us: Because they don’t know the rules of the road either.”
That is the weakest argument yet. Not even sure what position that comment could be used to support! Since I’m not taking sides here, it doesn’t matter.
“You argument sounds like you think kayakers should be the whipping boys of the nautical world.”
OK, now you are exhibiting classic “victim mentality” and polarizing this unnecessarily. Making it into an issue between paddlers and other boaters - “us vs. them”. It is not, and taking that attitude hurts the paddling community. That is precisely the attitude I object to here. We are all boaters. This is not something to be defensives about - but obviously there is a lack of information/understanding among a large portion of the paddling community.
grumpy
I hear the term Pilot, and wish to clarify what a Pilot is Vs a Master. Pilots are highly experienced Masters, usually unlimited tonnage, any oceans Masters with decades of experience. Pilots are placed aboard incoming ships(via pilot boats)to guide them into harbors. The Pilot assumes control of the vessel and directs the Master and crew in navigating a given piece of water. Likewise Pilots will lead a ship out of harbor into clear water. They are experts in local waters. Interestingly the ships Master is ultimately always responsible, so if the Pilot messes up, such as the Arco Anchorage / Port angeles accident (grounding) years ago, the Master is still culpable. That Master failed to override the Pilot. Seasoned Masters apply to be Pilots and sometimes wait years on a list to become a Pilot.
Rule of tonnage is more complex than just size. Vessels restricted in ability to maneuver, constrained by draft, not under power, engaged in fishing or other operations etc… The Rules are complex and can be confusing, and that’s why folk should really immerse themselves in understanding their craft, it’s / your ability, and take an active role in becoming a courteous mariner.
“dangerous wakes”
""“Additionally, under Speed Restrictions, “It is unlawful to create hazardous wakes.””"
A sea kayak on Lake Superior shouldn’t find a wake from any vessel harardous.
I rule with the kayaker getting out of
the way and if not able to handle the wake then stay way from them. As for the power boat giving way to the sail or paddle craft that is fine if the channel allows them to move safely. Also when that happens the overtaken boat must maintain course and speed. If you want to see big wakes try the wakes from a nuclear sub at surface speed. Paddle in Block Island sound or near New London and you just might get to see one. Not nice, they are huge. Both my wife and I love to play in wakes either heading into them, riding them or just letting them slip under you as you take them to the side.