Two different things
Yes, of course different boats will have different amounts of glide, and some will maintain momentum better than others. However, that’s a function of boat design and I wasn’t talking about that. My point is about minimizing glide time through paddling technique.
In calm conditions on flatwater this may not be so noticeable, but in wind and waves any boat will lose forward momentum regardless of how well it glides, and by linking strokes you can keep the boat under almost constant propulsion and thus minimize loss of momentum.
Another benefit of this technique in rough conditions is that the boat is more stable under power. In my (somewhat humbling) experience, it only takes a split second to be capsized, so if you can gain even that split second of propulsion time, it may make the difference in your ability to stay upright.
need to do whatever makes them happy
Thank you Salty. That is the bottom line for those of us for whom paddling is not a profession
WW kayaks analogy?
WW playboats are slugs on slow moving water.
Old school and longer ww kayaks are much faster down or up river.
My I3 is no fun paddling up to a feature, but great fun dropping in on or moving laterally to a feature.
The difference betwen my Elaho DS or Romany and my Aquanaut seems somewhat analogous to that between my I3 and my Diesel.
I agree and to clarify
The aquanaut, romany, and nordkapp are very similar in terms of the broad spectrum of boats labeled as ‘kayaks’. The speed difference in those hulls is fairly small when compared to an Old Town Otter and an Epic K-1 Legacy. It would take a spectacular ‘engine’ to move the Otter faster than an average ‘engine’ in a Legacy. And for most people, there is no amount of technique or power that will over come those differences. Also consider the amount energy required to move the far less efficient hull.
When you refer to kayaks that are really quite similar, Otter and Prodigy, Aquanaut and Romany, Legacy and Viper; then yes, the paddler’s skill is far more important.
mtec, i agree.
mtec: “it’s the paddler, not the boat” argument a lot but I just dont buy it"
hey
it’s the bottom line of even ‘some’ paddling professionals!
=:-0)
steve
Matt did you get your RS yet?
you mentioned ordering a Romany Sex, did you get it yet?
Can’t focus on one variable
LOA is only one variable. It’s what’s in the water that matters. A 17 ft. boat with very fine, overhanging ends and a low Cp will present to the water like a shorter boat. There’s a lot going on here, and it’s very dynamic in a changing sea condition. Probably too much tech for P-net.
The bottom line for folk here is (in my way of thought)narrow down your category of paddling, paddle several boats within said category, buy the one that feels right to you, and you enjoy being in. Go paddle and rest assured your boat is plenty capable and you made a good choice!
For those like Bowler who truly are hooked by the techy side of hull design, by all means learn all you can. There are some great books and resources…enjoy the journey. This knowledge will enhance your paddling, and probably shatter some brochure based thinking…
Makes sense
Big post, makes sense to me. Just one kibbitz - you mention energy expenditure and cadence without mentioning that this is power, i.e. Power = Energy expended per unit time. No big deal.
My (rhetorical) question is this: you mention the 16’ day boat as being a (somewhat) ideal length. So I ask why not 14’ or even 12’? I have a somewhat ulterior motive as I paddle a 14’ SOF version of the Coaster, a well-liked short sea kayak and rock gardening boat, not to mention surfer. As long as the tracking is taken care of by good hull design, are there serious drawbacks to padding short boats, other than their perceived drawbacks in the minds of long-boaters?
Yes, thank you
I can out run Jed if he is paddling a Swifty and I’m in one of my sea kayaks 
Though I have a friend who keeps up with sea kayaks when paddling his Pirouette S.
A few responses…
First off…these are just some thoughts. I probably should have used less commiting words in my conclusion as this is just one perspective that I am presenting here. I am not necessarily completely sold on this perspective, it is just the philosophy that I am playing with this week on boats. As you all probably know I have changed my mind a lot and may do so again, but for right now I think I may have reached an epiphany.
In response to JackL…I know he paddles a QCC 700…completely different ball game there in my opinion. I would classify that boat along with the Epic and a few others as truly fast kayaks and perhaps a different niche than the Brit / Greenland touring boats that I have paddled.
As to a shorter boat being even more ideal than a 16 footer…good point. I don’t know, as I have never paddled something shorter. I guess I made a broad assumption in that most performance touring boats are in the 16-18 foot range. The Coaster is an exception and is somewhat of an anomoly as I understand it…possessing almost magical powers according to those who have paddled them. It is somewhat in a class of its own from what I understand.
On terminology…yes it has been a long time since I have taken any physics or engineering classes…I forget all the proper terminology and distinctions among power, vs. energy, vs. work etc. I did not take the time to do any research on terminology in writing this…it was just a stream of thoughts I jotted down somewhat quickly.
Lastly…I think I am only scratching the surface here. I think there is more at play that I realize exists, but am not knowledgeable enough to fully understand. I have never taken any classes in fluid dynamics, etc. and my degrees are not in engineering. I believe that there are a lot more factors that come into play here, but I just don’t really fully understand how…such things as glide, cadence, the variable pertaining to how fast the water is moving by the boat and the effect this has on energy input vs. cadence, etc, etc. I would be interested in knowing though.
Perhaps someone else out there who has some engineering background can better explain than I can.
Okay one more thing…yes, I agree with one of the posters above (think it might have been Salty) that you have to make choices on boats based on what makes you happy. Absolutely true.
Paddling is a hobby (for most of us) and is something we do for fun. The boat that we choose must provide the attributes that are most important to us based upon our needs and preferences.
What I am suggesting is that perhaps many people would be more happy with a 16 foot boat rather than an 18 footer. I think that a lot of people probably get the 18 foot boat becuase it is “faster.” I think this may be a misconception for most paddlers (of course there are exceptions).
I also think, that most of us probably will not make many long expeditions and probably can get enough gear into a shorter boat.
For me as a paddler I started out paddling strictly for fitness. I wanted another activity other than cycling and weight lifting that would provide a workout and would be fun to do in the process. As such speed started out as a major factor for me.
As I became a better paddler and wanted to start perfecting skills and strokes I became less and less interested in speed, and more interested in technique and skills. In the process of my quest for speed I have tried many boats and endlessly evaluated them with GPS for their differences in speed and efficiency. I found that there was little difference, but that there was a good deal of difference in maneuverability.
More maneuverability, responsiveness and playfullness make me have more fun on the water…and for what little tradeoff there is in speed (a half knot) I think it is a good trade. Frankly, a half knot is pretty much insignificant and inperceptible on the water unless you are truly doing a multi-day expedition and need to cover a lot of miles…while this is an appealing fantasy to me I know that I will not be doing any circumnavigations of Great Britain any time soon…maybe some day.
Matt
Matt
Thank you Matt
Thoughtful, inquisitive, open minds are very valuable.
You contribute much and your often suppleness of thinking is a fine exemplar.
16.9 Capella
I went out yesterday in my Capella 169. I went about five or seven miles, going into the wind and tide, about 10 knots and not a swift tide, but still an incoming tide on a wide tidal river. I’m 6’ 3’’ 200 pounds using a Lendal 220 crank with Kinetik S blades. So, I’m just cruising but keep hearing this outboard motor just behind me and I’m wanting for it to pass. Well, as it turns out this little John boat with a small outboard could just hardly pass me! It was putting out a nice wake too! Ok, it was the smallest John boat you have ever seen, but still, I was already 7 miles into my trip and just cruising.
I’m a big guy for a 16.9 and for the Kinitic S blades. I usually have to keep the skeg down which doesn’t seem to affect the speed at all. The slight weather cocking is the only aspect that affects me. The speed is not an issue. I may try and bump up the blades to the Kinetic to have a little more force to counter some weather cocking.
This hull is fast. It’s the 2003 which everyone said was way too twitchy. It was at first but I’m used to it now and like the speed. I also have the smallest little tidal creek in my back yard. This thing looks like a ditch but is deep enough at high tide to get out to the harbor. There is some horseshoe turns all the way then it’s open water.
Anyway I think the size of the blade is a major factor. I want a bigger blade but don’t want to damage my shoulders.
Otherwise, despite myself being a beginner, a big guy in a 16 footer with small blades, I think I could keep up with almost anyone on 15 mile trip with wind and tide. I would like slightly better tracking on longer trips, although it’s not hard to counter even with the small blades, and I’ll probably just get a larger blade for a backup for real windy days.
I think it’s a delicate balance between the boat, size of the paddler, size of the blade, etc. I like the 16.9 Capella for one boat that does it all. I also like the smaller blades that have just enough catch. The last thing I want to do is damage my shoulders.
Curious
as to your reasoning that larger blades contribute to shoulder damage?
could be strain
it’s EZ to pull a little too hard on a big blade, creating some strain.
I find that with big blades I need to regulate my power a bit more than with a smaller blade.
Kinda like putting chains on in deep snow. GREAT traction but if the tires do get bogged down you’ll quickly burn out your clutch.
steve
4 - 4.5 mph assumption is just okay
The main point on which you base your thesis is that most paddlers will average 4 - 4.5 mph of cruising speed and that is satisfactory. Many of your points are valid if this modest speed is all you expect.
However, there are some paddlers who break out of this mindset. I have seen mediocre cruising speed expectations promoted on paddling.net far too much. Usually you see people promoting 2.5 - 3.5 mph as a reasonable expectation.
With a few simple equipment choices and technique improvements 5.5 - 6.5 mph cruise speeds are easiliy within the reach of serious paddlers who aspire to more speed, range and endurance. Once someone discovers this, a whole new world of paddling opens up to them. Suddenly they will be able to paddle at the speed of the ocean and catch waves they would never have had a chance with before. Suddenly that island that was always an epic paddle away, becomes a quick afternoon trip. 12 - 20 miles in an afternoon becomes common place and can be repeated day after day if one chooses. You may actually start to prefer days when the wind and waves are up, when others are seeking protected water.
I’m a short overweight paddler in my mid 40s. I have girly arms. But I discovered the secrets to paddling speed and efficiency a few yeasr ago. Once discovered, it allows you to make other equipment choices that lead to even higher speeds. Speed and efficiency spirals upward. Within a year or two you will be preferring the longer narrower kayaks that properly reward your skills. Once you mate the right technique with right equipment it is like flying jets while everyone else are still in crop dusters.
But you will never achieve any of this if 2.5 - 4.5 mph cruise speeds are good enough for you. Even worse are the paddlers who have been misled to believe those slow to mediocre speeds are all they should expect.
its all about personal style
if speed is what you need then envyabull is on the right track.
but if you crave a good carve, or if rough surf is your home turf, then you might want to follow the cadence of a different paddler.
Better yet, make your own cadence, find your style, and feed your soul
Please open your wallet to me so I
can open the world of speed that you speak of 
Heck, I have to drive over 70 miles if I want to paddle over 3 miles without doing laps and I can’t afford the gas to do that very often.
Some day I may own a “fast” boat like a Q600X or Q10X, but until then I’ll enjoy my relatively slow, but fun composite Sea Lion. On the small lakes around here that I paddle most of the time, the straight tracking boats aren’t as much fun.
My speed only feels inadequate when I paddle with better paddlers, so I paddle alone most of the time. I can definately feel a difference in effort required to keep my assorted boats at the same cruising speed and the Sea Lion is the most efficient of my boats. None of them are considered fast boats and I’m not considered a fast paddler.
For most of my outings, my solo canoes paddled with single blade bent shafts are plenty fast enough.
Envybull, I always enjoy reading your posts and usually learn some good tips.
Happy paddling.
half a knot
A half a knot is a huge difference for a sea kayak. My typical speed is 4.0 kts. I cannot manage 4.5 kts for more than 10 minutes, so cannot keep up with faster paddlers. 3.5 kts is very slow and I do not like to paddle with anyone going only 3.5 kts. I would immediately buy a new kayak that enabled me to go from 4.0 to 4.5 kts, without being uncomfortable due to lower stability.
Speed…
Please note that 4.5 knots is a bit over 5mph. That is a good crusing speed and achievable in most 16-18 foot boats.
6.5 mph crusing speed…unless someone is using a winged paddle and an Epic or similar boat this is not very realistic for all but the best paddlers.
I think a lot of paddlers would be surprised at what their actual crusing speed is. Take out a GPS sometime and evaluate.
I consider myself a good paddler with a good and powerful stroke. I use an Ikelos paddle (big blade) and have a pretty powerful build. Of all the boats I have owned (all British and Greenland style boats) I have never been able to cruise at much faster than about 5.5 mph. In fact I don’t think I have even sprinted on flat water up to much more than 6.5 mph.
Matt
Matt