followup…
I would agree though with the comment above that there is a whole other world of kayaking to open up when it comes to fast boats. I would have to agree that surf skis and racing boats , winged paddles, etc do open up a whole different realm.
One day, perhaps, I will enter that realm, but right now I am far more interested in building finesse and technique and getting out and playing in rough water.
Also to answer another question above that I forgot about…Yes, I did get the Romany Surf. Absolutely awesome boat. The best I have owned, for me at least.
A review may follow.
Matt
it ain’t fast
but it sure is a lot of fun eh! i would love a fast sea kayak, a Think boat, or a Valley Rapier. a big beautiful ocean is at my doorstep, but not the swell of the open coast. for me, paddling my arse off in a fast boat, just doesn’t appeal the way playing slalom around rocks and races. swell conditions show up with about a 2 hour drive west out of the Straight. this is where ski like boats would shine. maybe one day…
knots are not miles per hour
3 knots = 3.45 mph
3.5 knots = 4 mph
4 knots = 4.6 mph
4.5 knots = 5.17 mph
5 knots = 5.75 mph
6 knots = 6.9 mph
When paddling SEA kayaks many of us use knots (nautical miles per hour).
BCU expects an intermediate paddler to be able to cruise at 4 knots.
The most common average paddling speed in a sea kayak I’ve seen cited is 3 knots.
The fastest I’ve paddled a (British)sea kayak when a GPS was employed was just over 6 knots.
Where does this say this?
– Last Updated: May-24-08 10:35 PM EST –
Where in the BCU syllabi does it state this? I've assessed and passed 3 and 4* and trained for the new 4* and no coach at any time has ever said I or my fellow students should be "cruising at 4 knots" -- and 3/4* are intermediate awards.
Just curious as to who or what your source was for this info.
Great thread Matt
– Last Updated: May-25-08 6:10 PM EST –
I agree with your comments regarding speed. I tend to paddle fast and use a GPS. In my 18 foot boat, I can easily do 4.5 mph..all day. 5.0 mph requires a bit more effort but I can maintain that for a good distance. Any speed above that is "sprint" speed. I can hit 6.5 but only for very short period of time (seconds).
Paddling has so many aspects to it, from fishing to racing and everything in between. Everyone tends to gravitate to an aspect that they enjoy.
Andy
Edit to add that I use a Wing paddle and the boat is an Artisan Millenium.
Training at Downeast
– Last Updated: May-25-08 1:03 AM EST –
During a training with Steve Maynard, John Carmody, et al off MDI in 2006 we had journeyed fast and long. In discussions about whether the pace was unusual, it was noted that for 4* one should be able to maintain 4 knots.
Last year in two day 4* training with a different set of coaches, the discussion of expected/appropriate pace arose and 4 knots was mentioned as the ideal.
Friends with whom I paddle who have done BCU training at SKG and Sweetwater have been working at maintaining 4 knots in anticipation of 4*
4 knots is not stated in the syllabus for 4*, yet in my experience it seems the pace most often given by coaches if asked.
Re:
“Curious as to your reasoning that larger blades contribute to shoulder damage?”
I really don’t understand you question.
Perhaps you should start another thread if you have something to contribute on paddle size and shoulder damage.
Nigel Denis said to use the smallest paddle size one can to avoid damage to the joints. It’s a well know fact.
Perhaps you should take issue with him and all the people who switch to a greenland paddle?
I said I wanted a larger blade but what to be careful not to cause permenate shoulder damage.
I also said I wanted two paddles for different conditions.
So, please start another thread if you have something useful to contribute. I’m here to learn and share my experience. I made it very clear I’m a beginner with one paddle and one kayak.
16 ft ??? Salty, Flatpick
Being one of those “average paddlers” In regards to this thread… Are we talking about sea kayaks under 17ft or sea kayaks that are within an inch or two of exactly 16 ft? The Romany and the Avocet seem to dominate these posts. Im never sure where we draw the line.<br /> I am specificaly wondering about yaks like the 16ft 6in Chatham or the same lenth Impex Susquehanna. Both of which are very manuverable and considered slow in many posts. When I paddle these two boats I seem to be much more efficent and actually go faster with less effort. My regular boat is an Explorer. I will add Im 5ft 10in, 210 lbs. Nice post Bowler!
I’ll take a shot
– Last Updated: May-25-08 2:17 PM EST –
First of all, you, like Bowler are observing reality and noting the contrast with marketing.
As noted the Chatham 16 is not really slow for you. It's a very specialised ocean play boat that excels in water that scares the hell out of most people. The same high volume bow and very full cross section that make it throw a bow wave in calm water make is superb in big nasty stuff. So, in the conditions for which it was designed it is "faster" than boats which are better for calmer seas. It is all a compromise.
The Ch 17 is faster for all round conditions.
Remember that these 16 ft. Brit / Greenland boats may have 14 ft. waterlines due to the overhanging ends. Potential speed is a function of LWL and availabe power.
The question should not be what is the fastest boat, rather what is the fastest boat for my power supply. Boats in the 14-16 foot range in this category tend to be a good compromise of efficiency at touring speeds while neither being too short nor too long.
To envyabulls point, all paddlers will benefit far more from a good paddle, and trained technique, but a weak paddler will always be slow, regardless of kayak. Likewise a strong, good paddler will smoke the average tourer no matter what he / she may be in.
For you, the Explorer probably is no more efficient at your speed than a shorter boat, and you are experiencing just that. However, te Explorer's added length will enable a strong paddler to go faster, catch rides easier, fight current etc. Again, it's a compromise. I prefer the Romany 16 even though it's a bit slower because it's more fun to paddle. On many long journeys I paddled the 16 and travelled just as far. Not long ago a fellow in Britain won a long race in Romany which had people scratching their heads... but he won on efficiency. The little boat was efficient at the speeds he could maintain hour after hour, thus he "netted" a better result. Conditioned expeditiners will choose an Explorer for outstanding ability in conditions, payload, ability to sprint when needed, etc.
On a recent trip to Baja (Loreto to LaPaz)a bunch of us paddled all sorts of boats long and shorter / 13 ft. Ironically, the short boats kept up just fine, especially in 6 ft. seas! It was a mind blower for some experienced paddlers who assumed otherwise. I'd go so far as to say that many sea tourers who think they are fast and good paddlers would actually perform better in handling rough water and keeping up in a transitional boat such as a Tsunami, or Manitou!
The science is simply that unless you are going to paddle at envyabulls speeds, it just doesn't matter all that much, so get the more fun boat. People focus on speed among a category of slow kayaks... which mini van is fastest? Who cares.
To me these are two sports. Touring, coastal play, and fast fitness paddling / touring.
There are great boats that bridge the gap such as Kayak Pro's Nemo, Epic 18, Seda Glider, QCC 700, Valley Rapier etc. You would find with good technique that any of these would be considerably faster than any of the traditional Greenland / Brit boats. Rapier is an excellent example! Made by Valley, but an entirely different hull design directed at fast A to B paddling. You might not want to play in rock gardens, overfalls etc, with these, as their design objective makes them excellent at speed, not so great at play.
BMW sedan Vs Jeep. Have one of each.
Lastly, focus on the stroke and a good paddle. But, just like boats, size the paddle with efficiency in mind, not max power, and you will go farther, faster, with less energy.
Plastic 15% Slower?
I had another manufacturer tell me that plastic kayaks are inherently 15% slower than more rigid constructions like glass, carbon, composites.
Hence, Flatpick Steve, would you agree that the Wilderness Tempest 170 Pro would be about 15% faster than my plastic Tempest 170?
As an aside, my techinique is getting better because my g/f in her superfast Epic 16’ tried to pass me on the inside and she never got in front of me – partly because I threatened to stuff her into the water lillies in the curve.
Bill
Mt. Pleasant, SC
Thanks, Steve
Appreciate the feedback. I have fibromyalgia, which makes me more prone to strain injuries, so I’m always on the lookout for possible causes and ways to prevent/minimize them.
Come to think of it, I do sometimes notice it in my elbow when I use my big blades, but - I also notice that when using smaller blades, I have to paddle harder to keep up with the pack! Can possible strain from larger blades be offset/avoided by more torso rotation, pushing with the offside hand, etc.? Other suggestions?
Thanks,
Cat
well now…
– Last Updated: May-25-08 9:10 PM EST –
a beat-up,scratched a bunch, tired old boat may come close to 15% but it'd have to be oilcanned too!
In effeciecy test we have done with gps/heart rate monitors we have found......
drum roll please.......
there isn't much difference, especially at the sub 4 knot pace.
In fact, as stated a few times before by others, there ain't much difference between boats in a like genre.
steve
depends
– Last Updated: May-25-08 9:18 PM EST –
everything salty said...
it really depends on the waterline length here and a few inches ain't gunna matter much. many folks 'percieve' a boats quickness and speed or slowness. get a heart rate monitor and then you'll see.
steve
yep
think RPM’s with a smaller blade. quick, EZ strokes full of torso rotation. don’t think of pushing fwd with the top hand, think of twisting your spine, pushing w/legs/ etc. punching/pushing encourages shoulder work!If you get a chance try an AT exception sometime 
steve
Agree with Salty
I think Salty hits a few good points above.
First I like his final point about there being somewhat two separate and distinct sports: touring and coastal play vs. distance / speed / fitness paddling.
I started out focused on fitness which somewhat lead to my interest in speed; however, as I began to progress as a paddler I became interested in the finesse and play aspect of the sport.
For a long time I tried to have both…speed and play. You can’t have both without compromising a bit.
I finally came to the realization that play and finesse was more important to me that speed, but this does not exclude the fitness part. I still get a great workout when paddling. You don’t have to just go straight and achieve a high speed to get a good workout.
To me, focusing on just straight ahead speed is fun, but is missing out on some of the truly finer points of the sport in my personal opinion. I find the play and techinical aspects of the sport much more personally enriching…for me. To me there is so much more to be had from the sport than just focusing on speed.
I also agree with his comments about efficiency for the speeds at which you travel. Paddling the Romany S and Explorer back to back last week I found that although the Explorer did cruise at a speed slightly faster than the Romany it did so with greater effort. Of course this is subjective, but it just felt that I could cruise at 4 knots in the Romany easier than I could cruise with the Explorer at its cruising speed of 4.3-4.5 knots. Those were the speeds at which I naturally found myself crusing in these boats based upon my paddling stroke and cadence.
I will also add that I think your experience with the Explorer vs. shorter boats is also a matter of perceived speed as I mention in the original post. You probably are actually going slightly slower than in the Explorer, but feel like you are going faster due to the lower amount of effort required to maintain that crusing speed and due to the faster acceleration of the shorter boats. A boat that accelerates faster and needs less effort to maintain its crusing speed will be much more discernable to the paddler than the difference between 4 and 4.5 knots. I would agrue that you can tell the difference in acceleration with the shorter boat, but you can’t really perceive the difference in top end crusing speed unless you have a GPS given that it is such a small difference (what about 15% or so???).
Lastly, I say “short boats”. I do assume that I am referring to boats in the 16 foot range such as the Romany, Avocet, Chatham 16, etc; however, I guess I would also add that there are some 17 foot boats that fit into this same nice of day / touring / play boats with lower hatch volume and shorter waterlines. Some examples would be the Anas Acuta and Pintail and some others. They are longer, but still have a lot of rocker and short waterlines and are clearly aimed at play and maneuverability rather than carrying capacity, speed and tracking.
Matt
Also agree with Flatpick
In order to truly get an assessment of speed and efficiency etc. you need both a GPS or knotmeter and a heart rate monitor.
Someone once mentioned to me that it was like having a tachometer and a speedometer.
I would argue though that even still the difference are slight.
Using the GPS you cannot nail down an exact figure. It varies so much. You end up with a range in determining a speed. I am sure that the same holds true with a heart rate monitor and the determiniation of effort required.
I found tha tthe range was so great that I could get a rough estimate of the average speed of a boat, but given its large deviation this average would have a low confidence level as being the “true” average for the boat (basic statistics stuff…).
So for instance when I say that the Explorer cruises at about 4.5 knots, I probably mean that it does so with about a 60-70% confidence level which is pretty low.
With the Romany S it’s about 4 knots with the same confidence level…so what does that mean? The averages are so close and the confidence levels so low that they are essentially about the same speed.
Probably holds true for exertion as well.
I have a heart rate monitor but have never added that to the equation, no do I plan to at this point now that I have realized that the hair splitting exercise really adds no value.
Paddle what you like. For many of us it will likely end up being the shorter boat once you get past the denial in which I think I was living.
Matt
Matt
With a mini van
you just drive it and enjoy it’s capability as a tool… You don’t measure it’s speed through the slalom or quarter mile cuz you’d just look stupid and would be missing the point of a mini van.
Paddle, paddle, paddle…enough boat talk for now. It’s just another displacement hull sea kayak… Whatever turns you on…It’s been done before. People have been crossing oceans for 9000 years conservatively…
Enjoy Matt. And, BTW, speed aint the point in these boats. Why rush through a coastal experience? You already know that as do most here. Safe travels all!
Thanks for the insight folks
Very helpful info for “average paddlers” like myself. Especially those who are just getting aquainted with the lenthy list of models to pick from. I love Saltys reference to "reality versus marketing" Thats where it`s at. Thanks again.
Chuck
it’s not enough
to have a full repetoir of skills, you’ve got to be able to keep up
unwritten expectations, anything to weed people out
I imagine there’s a secret BCU handshake too
Our physical sensitivity
Much of your premise is based on numerical findings (speed / mph / weight handling etc). Since we are a human powered craft, our sensitivity about subtle differences in hull speed and handling is more notable than seems obvious by mph numbers. I can tell right off it a kayak is slow or fast and all paddlers can feel those differences and make choices based on the trades theyÊlike. Some people want more initial stability some want more maneuverability, some want light weight. the differences are often subtle but since we are a 1 human powered craft it’s quite noticeable to us and multiply that by 3 hours of paddling, you get a decidable difference in various boats - enough to want one over another.
Ever ride a crummy cheap bicycle and then get on a nice $600 bike. Numerically the differences are tiny, but the difference in feel is huge.