Thats the point…
Yeah…what Salty and JayBabina wrote! Someone also mentioned earlier on that the only time kayak “speed” is an issue for them is when they paddle with people who are faster…by virtue of skill/conditioning or their boat. That too.
It’s not the only reason I’m looking to get a new boat, but its an important one. I’m still hanging on to the Tsumami 145 because its just so versatile and fun. A great camping boat too.
Interesting…
I’m going to try your suggestion next time I’m out.
Pushing with the offside hand is what I learned and what I teach, but you’ve enlightened me that (as with everything else in life), a situation may call for something different.
This is what I like about P.net. Thanks again - you’ve helped me become a better teacher.
con mucho gusto
with much pleasure!
the ol’ push ~ pull went out the door a few years ago for the more effecient twist!
good luck!
steve
John Winters comments
Anyone take down John Winters comments?
I was intending to ponder his comments when I had more time. When I returned to this thread they had disappeared. If anyone copied his comments and could send them to me I’ll be most grateful.
Thanks,
Dave
to be able to keep up IS a skill
As far as BCU expectations - I’ve come across them in the context of 4* training as a point of reference. There is no reason for a lillydipper to attempt 4*. The day with Steve and John was pretty exhausting and it seemed we paddled pretty fast whenever covering distance. That was what lead me to ask what was the usual pace one should be able to maintain in a 4* level group/training. Since then I’ve realized that we were frequently paddling faster than 4 knots.
In any case, if you can’t keep up with a pod then maybe you are paddling with the wrong pod.
Perfect Boat
The perfect boat is the one that best meets your needs… and needs change.
I’ve built about 40 boats over the years, ranging from strippers, S&G’s, wood SOF, aluminum SOF, folders, and most recently inflatable / folders. I rarely build the same boat twice, so there is lots of variety in these boats ranging from 19’ X 17" to 10’ X 24".
As I’ve gotten older, speed has become less important, being relaced by all around performance with an emphesis on light weight. Perfect for me means good speed, good tracking, quick turning, and resistance to weathercocking. I would assume that meets most paddlers definition of perfect also.
That’s why my perfect boats are now inflatable / folders. The Sonnet 16 ( 16’ X 21" X 20lbs) below has 4 sponsons and a lightweight 3 aluminum tube frame with no cross sections or ribs. It’s rough water stability / performance is the best of any boat I’ve built.
Thomas Ziegler from Germany has sent me the following link with a slideshow of his Sonnet 16 being paddled. Note it’s performance when swamped. If speed is a concern, he reports that it’s faster than his Skerrey.
http://picasaweb.google.com/tamatumani/SonnetRolling
Regards,
Tom
max speed may matter when…
My regular paddles are usually circumnavigating some island along the NC coast involving the intracoastal waterway, 2 inlets, and the open coast. I enjoy covering some miles mostly, with some play along the way, and often times the entire paddle on the open coast can be challenging, and with very few exceptions, it involves breaking surf entering or exiting the inlets, along with fighting current somewhere along the line. I have sea kayaks ranging from just over 16’ to 19’. I’ve had several experiences paddling along with 16 - 17’ boats, coming into an inlet against the current, and all of the sudden it’s as if the shorter boats have anchors. The same happens on the open coast with, for example, a sustained south wind. We’re going along fine through the waterway, and we hit the wind, waves, and current of the open coast, and I feel as though I need to throw them a tow rope if we want to get anywhere. All of the sudden, I’m the only one that can play and maneuver on the bigger waves and swells because the shorter boats can do nothing but struggle for forward progress. On a couple occasions I thought I could contribute it to their being uncomfortable on the water, but on others, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Is it possible (based 100% on real-world observation)that a longer boat is simply notably faster and more capable given my typical paddling conditions? Just to throw a couple out there, if I’m going out for one of my normal paddles, my carbon kevlar Capella won’t hold a candle to my fiberglass Extreme capability-wise. Now if I’m with slower boats and paddlers, often the Capella is a lot of fun, but “for me” that could never take the place of the added capabilities of something like the Extreme. Does anyone else run in to this type of difference dealing with boat length and/or speed?
thumbs up for Manitou
if I could have only one boat it would be the Manitou 13.
makes sense
put a strong paddler in a 15’ Pygmy Osprey or QCC400 and it’ll fly.
I agree
and you are a fit enough paddler to realize the potential of the longer boat. It’s the small, low power paddlers who cannot…just like you wouldn’t give them a big race wing paddle, or put them on ski’s too long.
Winters would say
“What’s the fastest hull for a given speed regimen” Start with the engine. Big engine? Great, paddle whatever you want! Little engine? Choose wisely for maximun efficiency.
It’s that simple.
Some years back I did a trip with two so called hot shots in their Current Designs Extremes. They were concerned that I’d not keep up in my Romany… I waited for them most of the time and at one point paddled faster backwards than they could. One guy laughed about it…the other was pissy because his theories were blown away.
Neither were fit or skilled enough to realize their boats potential and that is the reality that some just cannot bear.
Boat speed and current…
Interesting comment above about shorter boats vs. longer in current.
I have not tested a short vs long boat back to back to see how current affects their speed, but I would think that it should be analogous to their speed on flat water.
It would seem that a boat that is a half knot faster on flat water would also be a half knot faster fighting a current.
It would seem that your speed against a current should be your normal paddling speed minus the speed of the current. This should hold true for all boats regardless of length I would think.
In fact, I would think the shorter boat might even be less affected by current that is running across or quartering given that it has a shorter length upon which the current can act to deflect the boat’s course.
Matt
Yeah thanks
for the comments Steve.
I was also using my back and my arms very little.
The push pull with the arms seemed ok but too much work for my arms.
By the way I did order a large paddle as well. Hopefully it won’t put any increased strain on my shoulders or elbows.
It will probably work out but just won’t know until I try it out.
matching strength to boat
this comes up often now with these discussions. how does one know where they are on the ‘strong paddler’ continuum? Salty i gather you are immensely strong if you can paddle faster in a Romany than guys can in an Extreme/Nomad. are these boats that hard to get their intended performance out of? is there that much friction on them?
Well,
I am a strong paddler with 20 years and a few thousand miles under my ass. Many of those on long solo voyages with 40 - 50 nautical mile days regularly. This makes me no better a human than a Pungo paddler poking along on flat water.
What it does mean is that I can speak with authenticity having the sea time, as well as knowing and working with several world class designers, testing boats, etc. I can tell you that I covered as much water in a Romany as I ever did in a Nordkapp. Tradeoff was slower sprinting ability against current etc., for more playfulness in big seas “for me”.
A Romany is not fast by any means, but neither is a fast kayak with a bad technique weak paddler. The Extreme is a fine kayak and an excellent tool for it’s intended use, but it was more boat than either of these guys could push. A fit, good paddler would have smoked me in my Romany no matter how strong I may be because the Potential Speed of the Extreme is greater.
These guys represented a lot of people who just think they are fit paddlers.
Please understand that I am not advocating short boats overall, just encouraging smaller less powerful paddlers to purchase wisely based on hydrodynamics, not marketing. I’ll never forget watching a 110 lb. woman in a Looksha III taking a class at Bowman Bay with her rudder up. The instructor was in a Mariner and giving great instruction on edging etc. But the poor lady was getting blown all over hell in a boat far too big for her.
I think good instruction and experience will tell someone their fitness level. If speed is a primary focus, then buy a boat designed for speed, a wing, and go for it.
Lastly an analogy that may make sense:
You are a 5 hp outboard motor. Youo can be placed behind a 25 ft. displacement hulled sailboat or a 50 ft. displacement hulled sailboat.
Clearly the 50 ft, hull can go faster due to LWL, but it also has more Frictional resistance to overcome in achieving that. Is 5 hp enough??
You see my point by now… The 25 ft boat will go faster and further per unit of fuel with the 5 hp than will the 50 ft. hull. Start with the engine!
BTW neither will make it against a 6 knot ebb in deception Pass with a 5 hp engine, and only the 50 ft. hull would have enough LWL and associated Hull Speed to make it against such current ASSUMING there’s enough POWER available.
Make sense?
yeppers
a big paddle has alot of grip and you just need to ‘feel’ the power and NOT overdo it! it’s all about balance…glasshopper.
steve
analogy
I don’t think the 25/50 ft sailboat and 5 hp analogy makes sense. An average paddler with average technique can make a CD Extreme go several tenths of a kt faster than any 16 ft boat; Mariner Express, Romany, whatever. If those several tenths are not important to you then paddle the shorter boat. I think those tenths are very important.
Wow…
Just went to your website. I with I had gotten my paddle from you!
You have some great deals there on paddles.
http://shop.aldercreek.com/Paddles/Touring-Paddles-c82.html
I got the Werner Ikelous to go with my Kinecic S.
I got it from REI for $385 with a %15 discount.
That’s the same as your price, with 3 day shipping.
But if it hasn’t shiped from REI by tomorrow, I’m canceling and ordering from Alder Creek.
That may be just it…
Those several tenths of a knot are important to you…to your average paddler they probably are not, and those several tenths come at the cost of a significant tradeoff in maeuverability.
It’s all in what is important to you I guess…but a half knot of speed (an increase in a bit over 10%) will cost you a lot more than a 10% decrease in maneuverability. So increasing speed seems to cost you a disproportionate amount of maneuverability.
If you were to do a weighted decision analysis you would have to put a significantly higher weight on speed over maneuverabiity in order to have the “faster” boat be the better choice. Perhaps not the case for most paddlers.
Matt
Matt, you won’t ever again have to
wrestle with the nagging questions of “speed in a kayak” until you clock 20 knots when you dip a rail on your surf kayak and make a burning for hell diagonal run. All this other stuff will seem like mental masturbation. I would also recommend waterfalls as you can go pretty fast over them, too.
Dogmaticus
I have a friend here
– Last Updated: May-29-08 8:01 AM EST –
One of the more experienced paddlers. Frequently paddles at a clip. Recently on an outting with relative beginners one of whom was quite slow, the group at one point split into two. Those paddling in, and those staying out. He and I volunteered to see the newbies back in (let's call him El Cid). El Cid would dash off at a sprint, get about 1/8 mile ahead, then stop and wait for the group. Did I say friend? Whatever else his qualities, his level of empathy leaves something to be desired. BCU 4*.