That’s right LeeG
But I sure as hell wasn’t going there! Those are major terms with the industry. Good luck bro…
Sacred cows?
OK to muddy the waters more, I prefer to think in terms of static and dynamic stability rather than primary and secondary (and an implied tertiary, which would be what, rolling? 
Just playing with semantics, but P/S isn’t very descriptive. Regardless of label, one is how easy it is to keep upright on calm water, the other on textured water (those heeling angles on flat water being just limited simulations of this).
I’m still looking for the mystifying parts. The important issues are really about balance. Nothing complicated there. My rock solid stable sea kayak is someone else’s nervous nightmare. Sounds like some direct experiments are in order for the OP so the sheer relativity of all this becomes clear. Get a rec boat, a sea kayak, and a surf ski… Or just the ski, as after that anything less challenging will feel as stable as a dock.
What boat paddler conditions???
– Last Updated: May-06-09 5:57 PM EST –
I think u r onto something there!! So, Ok. So what type of boat would a bcu 5 paddler be most able to survive in for 7 hours of 25 k winds and 10 foot waves?
I wonder if some sacred cows would show up here
Why not a great paddler in those seas?
– Last Updated: May-06-09 8:30 PM EST –
Believe it or not the world is full of astonishing paddlers that don't even know what all that star shit is about :) Best ones I know are not affiliated with any "programs".
Find it amusing. Must be a case of being in one system and that becoming one's only source of comparison.
No, NOT knocking that stuff. Just funny that good for some assumes BCU 5 star. How many Olympians or world class surf kayakers or WW athletes come from that system? Very few that I know of.
So, I say lot's of ways to become great.
Just Lookin’ for a Middle Ground
I want it to be easy to roll and easy to edge but if I want to sit back and eat a sandwich I don’t want it to be like doing a track stand.
Yeah ok
For sure. Totallly. I don’t subscribe to it.
To be clear a balanced intgrated and honed skilled paddler
:>)
SOOOO
– Last Updated: May-07-09 5:55 AM EST –
are those 10 foot waves breaking? rollers? or short period?
25 Knt winds are self explanatory....
But waves are of all kinds....10 ft rollers are a LOT differant than 10 ft breakers.
Best Wishes
Roy
Rescue boat!
25 knots is very doable for many for varying periods of time, but 7 hours is a long time. 3 hours in that has nearly worn me out in small accompanying wind waves of just 2-3 feet. Boat was as much of an issue as much as endurance. But then again, I’m a no-star so I don’t get to tap into the mystical powers of the Brit boats! L Big swells don’t automatically make it that much harder, but still more to work. Spilling or breaking big stuff would be another thing entirely, and game off for me. Fun for some select others I’m sure, but likely not for 7 hours even with elite paddlers.
My initial reaction to this sort of “what boat for this” question is usually to pass. I’m somewhat of a gear head, but not to the point I look to a certain kayak to be the answer for these sorts of questions. Gear is not the answer - not in any sense that means anything to anyone else anyway. The reasoning will always come up short. You may be able to answer such a question for yourself over time, with a lot of trial and error type experience, but never as a pure thought exercise like this, and definitely never for anyone else.
Besides, conditions change constantly, and you rarely have the luxury of switching kayaks mid paddle. You have to dance with the gal you brought (and some get really good at reading weather and picking their venues before deciding which kayak [if they have a choice]). Too many ways to look at it, and we’re all different anyway.
As others keep saying: Each design has a particular traits, and some may be more appropriate for certain things for certain paddlers, but it ain’t the kayak that makes the real difference in the end.
stability
Depends on what you want the boat to do. Very skinny boats tend to be faster and are less effected by big waves. Wide boats can be wonderful in protected waters specially if you want to do things like take expensive cameras with or you plan on spending the day fishing.
Find plans for a balance stool, costs maybe $5 and use it when you’re watching TV at night. You’ll quickly find that skinny boats can be relaxing too, once you get used to them.
Bill H.
7 hrs of 10 Ft waves 25 knot winds ?
Sounds like Jalama Expression Sessions - come on out, first weekend of December Jalama, California ( You have to put up with three days of this and the Party Saturday night.) … Have pics somwhere of Bullseye and others who post here. Weapons of choice have surprisingly little secondary stability …
"Gear is not the answer"
Thank you.
For after all the paddler’s skill is the bottom line.
wrong Greyak.
it’s called a Klepper!
Romany for most…
– Last Updated: May-07-09 8:30 AM EST –
"I want it to be easy to roll and easy to edge but if I want to sit back and eat a sandwich I don't want it to be like doing a track stand."
A Romany would fit your criteria for most paddlers.
I think it may have been Brian who noted here some time ago that it was Nigel Dennis who seemed to first understand that good primary stability is an asset in a sea kayak. I would add that Aled Williams was the co-designer of the Romany and the person referred to on the NDK site as a 'boat designer' with whom Nigel collaborated. Aled's designs continue to strive to be very responsive while being very reassuring.
Indeed there are now many boats designed to be responsive yet reassuring to a range of paddlers.
However, it is surpassingly paddler specific which boats edge and roll easily while being stable enough to eat a sandwich or take photos.
Volume and Stability
A (too) big boat will provide plenty of your classic primary and secondary stability. On the other hand a lower volume boat keeps you from bobbing; pitching; yawing; responding to every little ripple. With your butt well below the water line you’re much more stable. Feels great.
volume and stability
I understand what you’re saying about proper volume (probably also tying into proper fit). But the way it’s worded could be misleading. Kayaks are designed with stability characteristics at an intended load. There are plenty of higher volume boats that are not generally considered stable (Vivianne, Nordkapp) as well as low volume that are (Outer Island). If you are underloading them, they most often feel even less stable vs more.
There is also the existense of many low volume editions where your butt will sit at the exact same level, and the only change is exposed water line. Yes, you may not get pushed around as much by steep chop, breaking waves, and wind, but in that case it has nothing to do with where you’re sitting in relation to the waterline.
I could always paddle a boat underloaded, and then with an appropriate weight, to figure out which of the behaviors in question (in this case stability) are actually the result of the volume being too much.
In any case, I’m not sure I see a relationship between volume and stability quite that way.
or an average fall day
on the great lakes… 
from the guy
who posted the t-rescue analysis
i say amen.
What if anything is learned from NZ
OK, I have been in the camp of it is dangerous to ever depend on equipment/boat/gear, it is the paddler. And the more one learns and gets some skills the less the boat differences, paddle, matter.
Still, I think from what I read here, I wonder if this issue is understood, at least by me, and i think it is a real world really might matter issue.
That is, regardless of paddler skill level, or for even the best paddler, what boat is most survivable in that margin of difficult conditions. What boat would the best paddler if they have infinite choice if they found themselves in terrible conditions? And would that choice be correct? Would it matter really? Are the differences significant compared with other factors such as paddler skill, endurance, etc.
The New Zealand (I think it was NZ) race appeared to show that the higher volume, wider boats were considerably less tiring to track and keep upright in massive seas and high winds than the Brit boats the other team felt was the best choice. The winning team felt boat choice was a dramatic edge in safety, energy expended, and speed. Of course they may have been hyping their sponsers!
It just got me to wonder, maybe even the Romany and other touted boats are not necessarily THE boat to have in these extreme conditions. And yes, the best boat to have is the one that stays in port because the paddler has the good sense to stay there when things are massively bad out there.
most boats are too stable and boring
A wide plastic boat is more dock than sommething that moves. My Mohican is 18 in wide and I love it. You, the paddle and water are one. You lean on the paddle and depend on it to be 7ft long, therefore the boat is wide because you are one with it. The eft for ocean racing such as blackburn is 20 in wide. Most boats are too wide and are fine as couches for talking.
That’s an easy day
on the NW side of Vancouver Island!