gave me a chuckle
I’ve never been able to figure them all out. As an example, I’ve specifically read somewhere that if you don’t start the roll during the 1st c and are perfectly upsidedown at 90 degrees, it’s called a high brace roll as a differentiation from a c to c. Here we have listed differing explanations. It always seems there’s little agreement. It’s very trivial to me, but this post demonstrates that it still somehow peaks some interest for me. I think maybe I just enjoy the energy in a conversation where someone is describing this great roll they pulled off. I’ve had occasions where I’ve finished on a forward sweep, where I’ve finished with the brace style pull down, where I let a wave just pick me back up by extending my paddle, etc., and I always end up wondering what roll I just did and according to whom. In any case, they all add a lot of fun to the sport for me.
Is this it?
Ok, so without getting hung up on roll names, both Jay's "first" lay-back roll and the basic Greenland paddle roll are both sweep type rolls, that just happen to use an extended paddle and finish on the back deck. Sweeping the paddle denotes it a sweep roll no matter where you set-up, hold the paddle, or finish. Correct?
Sweep, screw, twist and turn, etc.
All
I was just pointing out that it is possible to have a good roll without a good high brace.
Does this mean I won’t be cast for This is the Sea 6?
Tell me it ain’t so!
didja ever have that roll…
…where you were upright, and you thought to yourself, “Well, I’m not sure how that worked or what I did. I hope no one was watching!”
verily true
Jay could say it best, but basically yes. Jay teaches this variation for the tired, nervous or new paddler to be able to come up by virtue of not having to use hip rotation nor sweeping action timing required. The extended paddle increases leverage and the layback decreases righting forces.
Although the kayaker could utilize rotation as his torso got to 90 degrees, this is avoided for simplicity sake and as a fail safe method to come up when out of air, really freaked out, and so on.
most people are less coordinated on
one side because they don’t do much with that side. But, most people don’t do anything similar to rolling a kayak on either side so there is minimal skill/muscle memory to build on.
Additionally, if you don’t explain what a ‘left handed’ or ‘right handed’ roll is (or looks like) then the students won’t be able to attribute their struggles to a weaker side. In fact, they probably won’t even know they are using their ‘weaker’ side.
I find it useful to teach both sides at the ‘same time’, and mixing up the movements (contextual interference). Preferably with the practice drills performed on the ‘weaker’ side first.
There seems to be one thing that helps
either roll. Squaring up to the surface. Square your chest to the surface and then reach upward to it. This element was essential for me to accomplish layback rolls such as the butterfly, shotgun, and other slow movement rolls. It is also a foundation of the static brace. Coincidentally it is was puts the first C in the C to C. I believe it is the torso version of paddle angle, as your torso provides more lift when flat on the water vs. the diving angle of a torso that is not flat to the surface. This is my 2 cent theory that may be total Bull*hit, but it seems to work for me. Forgive me if I have gotten off topic. Bill
There is not just one high brace
For example, you can do a sweeping high brace (one or two sculls with a hip snap) or the layback high brace that EJ teaches. Both are easier on the shoulders than the traditional c-to-c high brace and can be done just as quickly.
Where are you at re rolling?
Are you watching these videos as someone planning to get a first roll of someone who has gotten up but wants to vary the repertoire? I am asking because, now that the water is getting to relatively tolerable temps with wetsuit level stuff, the fastest way to an answer may to get a friend who can roll to start working with you so it is physically real.
As to not needing a hip snap, or whatever you want to call it, while coming up in the layback reduces the need for a strong hip snap, you ultimately will have to go get one of those things. On both sides. So you may as well incorporate it in your practice early on. Especially since the Explorer is very kind to bad rolling efforts.
absolutely
This helps me also and I’d like to see it emphasized much more in rolling classes.
All I Know
is whether you finish on the back deck or not… rolls are much easier if you wait until the paddle is near 90 degrees to the boat before you pull down. Much better leverage.
why would you pull down? NM
snap crackle pop, pull down, what?
One of the most counter intuitive aspects of rolling is the mental idea that pulling down on the paddle will somehow rotate the boat. I think this comes from the mind saying, hey, no oxygen here, get the head up there!
Better to realize that the body and the paddle are simply acting as a fixed lever that allows your torso, hips, and legs to rotate the boat away and then under you. And finally you lift your body to vertical with that lever still in the same plane.
For a C to C the hip snap would better be called the torso crunch, that is the C, the tensioning of the torso and then the uncoiling of that spring resulting in a strong and swift boat rotation.
For the Screw roll, there is no snap. Rather it is a torso twist, but just like the C to C, you begin coiled up tight to the boat body turned facing the boat very coiled, holding it there as you go over, and then uncoiling the torso twisting which results in a somewhat slower but very powerful boat rotation.
For shorter bigger folks this can be more powerful than a C to C.
But neither requires nor is it good to visualize pulling down with the paddle. In fact the reason the head comes up and there is an instinct to pull down is that the rotation stopped, usually because the paddler either did not know how to precoil up or left that home position before starting the roll.
Puh Leeez
Even hand rollers push DOWN with their hands.
Puh Leeez
Even hand rollers push DOWN with their hands.
Yeah, I’ve seen video of those straight jacket rolls done in trick boats… more submarine than sea kayak. That ain’t me.
sweep has no hand down movement
While rolls like a C2C do, I think Tideplay was pointing out that it’s best to not think of it that way. Often it’s suggested to instead think of pulling the boat back under you. While you could call that the same difference what is key is that the latter stresses the importance of the hips and torso while the former may cause one to rely entirely on their arms.
It is a matter of primacy
"pull down" gives the message of initiating the roll with paddle motion. For both the c-to-c and sweep the roll is initiated with the body and the hands/paddle are dragged along. Granted there is support from the paddle, but pulling down is a mistake.
you have a point!
Kudzu
you have a point, I was just emphasizing how to focus on rotation that is all!
But seriously, the physics of it is using the torso and paddle as an opposing force, otherwise you would have little to rotate the boat with.
What happens in the C to C is actually throwing the torso down as an opposing force which allows one to rotate the boat up.
A hand roll is a study in all these forces. Due to the necessity of having less resistance from no paddle, one needs to maximize both the torso and hand going in the opposite direction only more so like in the C to C. In addition one reduces righting force by either laying back or forward.
With the screw roll one has the added force of torso twisting rather than movement downwards to rotate the boat. So the need to bring the body up and and paddle down to rotate is somewhat reduced.
All the styles rely mostly on the torso body as a lever and floating in the water as long as possible, full rotation, and minimizing righting force.
So you are right to drill down on this some!
I Understand
I completely understand about the emphasis... especially in teaching someone new to rolling. Personally I have problems with the term 'hip snap'. I never "got it" until it was described as a 'knee lift' or 'thigh twist'.
How's this:
"Wait until the paddle is near 90 degrees to the boat before you attempt to right the boat... be it snappy or smooth."
When Folks Lose Their Roll
My main point here is this: When new rollers start failing I invariably see them set up; get upside down; and sweep their paddle straight down toward the bottom of the lake. Failure every time. Then I offer to guide their paddle along the surface; instruct them not to try to come up until the paddle is at 90 degrees, and they succeed most every time.