How about a 200m sprint athlete? a 500m sprint athlete? a 1,000m sprint athlete (granted that is a bit beyond 0.5 miles. Slalom athlete? Boatercross? Have you paddled much whitewater? You tool along at 10%, see your move, pour on the gas for 3 - 5 strokes to nail that move. Surf ocean breaks? Raced surf ski and needed to catch a wave? My forward stroke from time spent as a sprint athlete allows me to catch waves on a river, ocean break or open water swelles that others cannot touch.
I agree that here is nothing gained past the hip (knee really). However having that ability to really pour on the gas has immense positives if you are to be a proficient and well rounded paddler. It is there when you need it.
Perhaps, I made a poor assumption, but I don’t think the OP was referring to any of those situations. Although, it would still apply because even in those situations you describe an efficient powerful stroke is better than the inefficient, “power” stroke that the OP describes.
One thing that has always bothered me is that the corolarry would also seem to apply and the first part of the stroke is lifting the kayak not water. I realize that lifting the bow a bit with the paddle is actually a different motion but not sure how to explain it.
Personally when I want to maintain water contact (surfing brace or preparing stern rudder) I trim the paddle as it passes behind me and move it so there is no resistance and the paddle acts as a foil and brings itself up to the surface as the kayak moves foreward. I do usually concentrate on using the correct form and bring the paddle out and to the side, however, especially when I m with paddling-pendantics.
Some of you may remember Sanjay who posted here a long time ago. He, I, and Tsunami Chuck went for a paddle on San Diego Bay. Sanjay went a bit nuts about me not bringing the paddle out at the hip at every stroke. I’m still paddling with my bad technique and i’ve been told he has moved on to perfect form in a few other sports.
As close as I can count, that video shows most of the paddlers are swinging wing paddles over 90 spm, when most kayakers are lucky to manage 55 to 65 spm. Those guys are the top 1%.
My disagreement isn’t about the technique. At the risk of blowing the discussion out of proportion, I’m simply pointing out that posting that video as a demonstration of how to paddle is like posting a video of the Tour de France and suggesting Kenny Kayaker do what they’re doing because scientific evidence and peer review proves it’s the right thing to do. While a prime athlete can climb a 10% grade standing on the pedal, the average person on a bike can not. Lance Armstrog does it.
I hear the same guff from master shooters like Rob Latham who tells his adoring fans that aiming a handgun is a waste of time, proper grip is irrelevant, and stance is insignificant. Followed by shooting with the little finger with pistol held upside down. Pure shtick. Then the double talk starts. That from a Prima Donna who shoots all day, every day, while using ammo and equipment provided by a sugar daddy sponsor. Pure in your face arrogance.
The first kink in the theory is how can anyone mimic that technique unless they’re using a wing paddle? Does that technique rely on a kayaks with a swivel seat? How long does it take a person to achieve that level of physical conditioning? How many hours of practice do you think it’ll take to refine that technique, a couple of weekends, a month, a season. Do they paddle like that for 26 miles? I don’t doubt the technique is efficient. My disagreement is in the way I interpret the speed graphs. I accept your expertice about technique, but you and I are on opposite ends regarding what the fluctuation means. You don’t respect my judgement and you have more credential while I have none. Kayakjourney should follow your recommendations. Peace out.
Fundamentals are fundamentals. They do not change, regardless of what level you are at, or your equipment, because they are based on the constant of physics.
Really? an average person can’t climb a 10% grade out of the saddle? Up your game and come to Colorado.
WTF is a “swivel seat”?
How long does it take to refine the technique? It never ends. A master is always a student.
Re your first paragraph… This is where video analysis and a coach comes in. My guess is that physiologically we, as humans, do not have the capacity to exert enough force for what you are describing for that to happen. It is like the mistaken intent of clipless pedals to pull up on that portion of a pedal stroke on a bike - we don’t have the musculature to effectively execute that.
Re your last paragraph… what I see most often (assuming you are paddling high angle) is that when paddlers drop that top hand the paddle exits late, and creates drag. The top hand should move across your field of view, and not dive, but remain on the same level path throughout the stroke.
I don’t follow kayak racing, but I recall reading how the stroke (possibly in Olympic competition) is intended to lift the kayak slightly to reduce drag . . . on the other hand, I could have misremembered. Information like this clouds my judgement. There’s no way I could manage that with a 69 lb kayak. Back to the drawing board for me.
Begging forgiveness, but I simply disagree with number 1. You can’t paddle wing technique without a wing paddle. I model that technique of planting the paddle close and angling away from the kayak. The problem is that the wing technique appears to be a firm of high angle. My left arm no longer articulates above level. Fundamentals are fundamentals, but I can’t do what I can’t do. My only option is low angle. It might not be as fast, but I manage the best I can. Unlike competitive paddlers, I have to remain within my aerobic threshold.
I already ruined my knees, so I’ll leave the out of saddle climbing to the heads in Colorado. No wonder they voted for medicinal dope.
You probably read about research on swivel seat to augment power, but maybe Im using incorrect terminology. It isn’t allowed in the Olympics. Watching that video you furnished, I couldn’t help but wonder whether the were swiveling on their butts. Based on your reply, I assume the answer is they do not.
I did see the seat demostrated in some form of competition somewhere.
In that last point we agree. I’m getting older but still learning and improving. I feel unfortunate that I can’t use refined techniques, but I’m hopeful. Once while bicycling a local trail, I saw a guy pedaling with one leg strapped in the toe clips. Another time, a guy on a recumbent was retrieving his wheel chair from the bushes. That made me appreciate the meager gains that I made.
“I’ve always found it funny that you’re urged to rotate your core, and then restricted to a stroke that can be accomplished without rotating.”
This idea is often at the core of this opinion. If I rotate more, my stroke will be longer.
It’s hard to stop arm paddling. But if you take your arm paddling out, exiting at the hips is a full stroke.
If your stroke is arms first followed by working in some rotation, you would likely find that extending your stroke is faster. If your stroke is front loaded with leg drive and rotation connected to the paddle, and you save your arms for the finish, it’s far more likely that you may question the extent of arm paddling that is valuable.
Just to make sure folks understand that the ACA doesn’t mandate hard-lining elite paddling technique to fit in, as an ACA member, I’m very much ok with you finding what’s comfortable, safe, and most effective for you for doing the paddling you enjoy. I’m ok with people seeing if other people share their opinions and ideas in a conversation or on a forum. Comments like “Douchebag” and “Troll with zero knowledge” are not things that I understand the ACA to tolerate.
Durangatan, as an ACA member, especially if you are at the high levels in the ACA that you claim, please try to represent our organization better. What teaching theories were you employing here in using that language? Perhaps you could lean into something different?
OP I think you are on to something, it is hard to get good rotation stopping right at the hips. Unfortunately my short ww boats transition quickly to steering when extended beyond the hips. Strictly speaking if your only goal is power on a forward stroke then at the hip is where I strive to exit. I often paddle the wrong way and still have a good time. I take classes and aim to do better but even if I don’t get better I enjoy the experience. Habits are hard to change but I’m glad paddling is still something I enjoy.
You are probably lifting the bow of the kayak a small distance. The amount of work you do is the force times distance, and most paddlers are able to lift the bow slightly to do things like reduce drag enough to slide over kelp more easily when beaching. You are not lifting a 69 lb kayak but causing the bow to rotate upward around the boat’s axis of rotation and this motion is accentuated by the bow wave you are creating.
I don’t disagree with the effectiveness of the competitive paddle technique. The fantasy is believing the average kayaker has the physicality to sustain the power to swing a cadence of 90 spm or more. The technical execution, anerobic output, and focus require to execute that stroke simply doesn’t exist in the average kayaker. Buying a wing paddle and a narrow boat and paddling on a weekend doesn’t enable anyone to pretend they’re an olympic athlete. That level of performance is sustainable only through constant, dedicated training and coaching. You don’t become an olympic champion by following tips on a public forum.
Who said anything about rotation stopping at the hips? Rotation is continuous. That paddle exit and rotation with the paddle in the air (referred to as “air time” in performance circles) sets that paddler up for a strong plant on the next stroke.
Great observation on rotation in your WW boat. It will, of course, depend on the boat. A river runner in the 10’ range will be fine. A playboat, not so much.
Thought I’d take the opportunity to muddy up this discussion. I too was skeptical of the “short stroke” method, but it holds up in practice
You can definitely get more forward motion per stroke if you pull up when the blade goes behind you. You can feel it in the flip. Great for when you need a lot of power in a stroke, say to accelerate or steer. The question is one of efficiency. Ending the stroke at your hips means you start the next stroke sooner. How much power can you get per minute, not per stroke?
Bow wave loss goes up more than linearly with speed. Energy loss is higher with faster surge speed / longer glide (power stroke) than faster stroke where your bow doesn’t pop up as much. So same horsepower continuous is less drag than same horsepower surging.
What actually limits your speed? If you have developed good muscles and form from long hours of paddling, its not your muscles - its your lungs. You can’t breath hard enough to maintain the speed that you can achieve in a sprint. So efficiency - boat speed per effort - is in the end more important than power per stroke.
Having said all that, I usually stop at the hips. But during a long 20 mile paddle after things get sore and stiff, I frequently switch to power stroking to stretch and work different muscles.
As far as Olympic athletes go, I have no doubt that their form is optimal for folks who have developed 20 pound pectorals. That doesn’t mean their form is best for the rest of us.
I agree absolutely. All the technical discussion rely on a highly conditioned athlete. Readers assume it applies to them, but it only really applies to 1% of the readers. The poster relates to the topic whether they can achieve the technique or not. Don’t buy into the hype that you can be an olymbian icon if you can just mimic the technique. You can’t just mimic the technique. That takes conditioning. Pay attention to your lungs. Absolutely @Kevburg.
